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REDBRIDGE: Circus returns to town – and so do protesters
A CIRCUS which uses performing wild creatures has returned to Redbridge.
But not everyone is happy to see the performers back in town, and animal rights campaigners were due to make their feelings known at a protest last night.
The Great British Circus has lions, tigers, horses, reindeer, zebra and camels, and entertains thousands of people across the UK every year.
But members of the Captive Animals Protection Society (CAPS) organised a demonstration outside the event at Barkingside, in protest against animals being kept in confinement.
Wanstead and Woodford Friends of the Earth campaigner Ann Williams said: "It's absolutely disgusting and certainly should be stopped. It's outrageous that it's back in town as I thought that we got rid of it.
| "It's absolutely disgusting and certainly should be stopped. It's outrageous that it's back in town as I thought that we got rid of it." | | Ann Williams, Friends of the Earth |
|
"It's unbelievable to have performing animals in a civilised society. If people want to perform in the circus it is up to them, but animals have no choice in the matter.
"There's tremendous cruelty in the training of these animals and quite often these are endangered species too.
"I'm surprised that in England we tolerate these blasted people and I'm most surprised that the council have granted them a licence."
Director Martin Lacey defended his circus, and said the Government's circus working group last year found no scientific evidence that travelling circuses could not provide for the welfare of the animals on show.
He added: "Our animals receive the best possible care. We feed them on balanced, nutritious food, make sure they have plenty of fresh water and provide them with a positive healthy environment.
"All training on the Great British Circus is done through positive reinforcement, and showcases the natural behaviour and athletic skills of our animals.
"Children adore seeing the animals, and without animals the circus is no more than a variety show in a tent."
A Redbridge Council spokeswoman said: "The private land referred to has a premises licence for entertainment, including circuses.
"Our licensing officers will visit to check the venue, and the animals under the new Animal Welfare Act. This is aimed at preventing cruelty, rather than reporting it. Although it is an emotive subject, a circus which includes animals is lawful."
10:15am Wednesday 21st May 2008
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CommentPosted by: Mr Codgers, snaresbrook on 10:33am Wed 21 May 08
The protesters are going around Redbridge handing out pink coloured letters asking shop keepers to take down posters. The letters are unsigned, undated and do not have any contact details except a dubious anonymous website. Typical! Killjoys. we are trying to get kids away from the streets and TV and now these idiots want to ban a Circus
The protesters are going around Redbridge handing out pink coloured letters asking shop keepers to take down posters. The letters are unsigned, undated and do not have any contact details except a dubious anonymous website. Typical! Killjoys. we are trying to get kids away from the streets and TV and now these idiots want to ban a Circus
Posted by: David Mitchell, London on 1:20pm Wed 21 May 08
[bold]Apart from the manner in which circus animals are treated and transported, why on earth would anyone with an IQ above 10 even want to visit a circus? How is it entertainment? The audience are hardly seeing the animals in their natural state.
Its a pity these circus lovers cannot think of anything more productive to do in their sad and no doubt pointless lives...
[/bold]
Apart from the manner in which circus animals are treated and transported, why on earth would anyone with an IQ above 10 even want to visit a circus? How is it entertainment? The audience are hardly seeing the animals in their natural state.
Its a pity these circus lovers cannot think of anything more productive to do in their sad and no doubt pointless lives...
Posted by: Jean, East Mids on 3:16pm Wed 21 May 08
In response to the post by 'catto' that animal rights activists have too much time on their hands- what utter nonsense! What we have is compassion and respect for wildlife that ultimately has the right to enjoy their lives in the habitats that they were born in to. Do these ignorant, ill- formed people not realise that alot of circus animals are taken from the wild and NOT born in captivity. And in response to Mr Codgers claims that we are trying to get kids off the streets... does he think that a scruffy, antequated circus holds the answers?! It's about time that parents took more of a responsibility in educating their children about widlife and what human beings are subjecting these beautiful creatures to? Stuffing your child full of candyfloss and making them watch tigers perform unnatural behaviours in a circus ring is gross, irresponsible and a total lack of imagination and is not the way to entertain or educate the future generation of animal lovers.
In response to the post by 'catto' that animal rights activists have too much time on their hands- what utter nonsense! What we have is compassion and respect for wildlife that ultimately has the right to enjoy their lives in the habitats that they were born in to. Do these ignorant, ill- formed people not realise that alot of circus animals are taken from the wild and NOT born in captivity. And in response to Mr Codgers claims that we are trying to get kids off the streets... does he think that a scruffy, antequated circus holds the answers?! It's about time that parents took more of a responsibility in educating their children about widlife and what human beings are subjecting these beautiful creatures to? Stuffing your child full of candyfloss and making them watch tigers perform unnatural behaviours in a circus ring is gross, irresponsible and a total lack of imagination and is not the way to entertain or educate the future generation of animal lovers.
Posted by: Diane, Redbridge on 3:45pm Wed 21 May 08
I was more shocked that I nearly crashed the car not quite believing I was seeing a herd of camels in Forest Road!!
I was more shocked that I nearly crashed the car not quite believing I was seeing a herd of camels in Forest Road!!
Posted by: Diane, Redbridge on 3:46pm Wed 21 May 08
I was more shocked that I nearly crashed the car not quite believing I was seeing a herd of camels in Forest Road!!
I was more shocked that I nearly crashed the car not quite believing I was seeing a herd of camels in Forest Road!!
Posted by: Simon Harris, London on 4:56pm Wed 21 May 08
I would say of course, boycott it but of course because of morons like M.Codgers and B.Hill, there are still idiots that will still go. The only thing is to enforce a complete ban against this type of cruelty. Live animals should not be allowed to be in any Circus, we shouldn't even have Zoos. Another shameful act of the human race takes place, this time in Barkingside.
I would say of course, boycott it but of course because of morons like M.Codgers and B.Hill, there are still idiots that will still go. The only thing is to enforce a complete ban against this type of cruelty. Live animals should not be allowed to be in any Circus, we shouldn't even have Zoos. Another shameful act of the human race takes place, this time in Barkingside.
Posted by: Mr Codgers-Yumveal, snaresbrook on 5:22pm Wed 21 May 08
[quote][bold]Simon Harris[/bold] wrote:
I would say of course, boycott it but of course because of morons like M.Codgers and B.Hill, there are still idiots that will still go. The only thing is to enforce a complete ban against this type of cruelty. Live animals should not be allowed to be in any Circus, we shouldn't even have Zoos. Another shameful act of the human race takes place, this time in Barkingside.[/quote] The sandel wearing, grass eating,tree hugger from 'London' speaks. Boring everyone round the Christmas Dinner about the merits of being a vegan no doubt. I knew a 'Vegan' once and swear I caught him eating luncheon meat in a darkened kitchen at a party once and he begged me not to tell anyone saying it was the drink. I have not mentioned it to this day until now (not by name of course) He ate out of my hand after that. It was more embarrassing for me!
Simon Harris wrote:
I would say of course, boycott it but of course because of morons like M.Codgers and B.Hill, there are still idiots that will still go. The only thing is to enforce a complete ban against this type of cruelty. Live animals should not be allowed to be in any Circus, we shouldn't even have Zoos. Another shameful act of the human race takes place, this time in Barkingside.
The sandel wearing, grass eating,tree hugger from 'London' speaks. Boring everyone round the Christmas Dinner about the merits of being a vegan no doubt. I knew a 'Vegan' once and swear I caught him eating luncheon meat in a darkened kitchen at a party once and he begged me not to tell anyone saying it was the drink. I have not mentioned it to this day until now (not by name of course) He ate out of my hand after that. It was more embarrassing for me!
Posted by: Sue, Chingford on 6:09pm Wed 21 May 08
Why has Mr Khalid been banned moderator?
Why has Mr Khalid been banned moderator?
Posted by: KEN, ilford on 7:28pm Wed 21 May 08
the circus is old hat,im surprised anyone goes at all, animals or no animals
the circus is old hat,im surprised anyone goes at all, animals or no animals
Posted by: lee on 7:53pm Wed 21 May 08
The people on this site are hilarious.Do you have any lifes at all.
While some of you may not like circuses ,clearly many thousands do,so dont try to force your views onto other people.
I see the animal rites looney brigade have found thissite,and rang round all there friends to tell theam to post comments lol your hilarious,but i dont think the Public take much notice of sad people such has David Mitchell with his own Iq level.Dont assume people Iq levels ,just because they want to take kids to a circus you prat
The people on this site are hilarious.Do you have any lifes at all.
While some of you may not like circuses ,clearly many thousands do,so dont try to force your views onto other people.
I see the animal rites looney brigade have found thissite,and rang round all there friends to tell theam to post comments lol your hilarious,but i dont think the Public take much notice of sad people such has David Mitchell with his own Iq level.Dont assume people Iq levels ,just because they want to take kids to a circus you prat
Posted by: chris, essex on 7:58pm Wed 21 May 08
[quote][bold]lee[/bold] wrote:
The people on this site are hilarious.Do you have any lifes at all. While some of you may not like circuses ,clearly many thousands do,so dont try to force your views onto other people. I see the animal rites looney brigade have found thissite,and rang round all there friends to tell theam to post comments lol your hilarious,but i dont think the Public take much notice of sad people such has David Mitchell with his own Iq level.Dont assume people Iq levels ,just because they want to take kids to a circus you prat[/quote] Grammar, spelling, punctuation. Just shows the benefits of Ed Youcaishern, Ed Youcaishern, Ed Youcaishern.
lee wrote:
The people on this site are hilarious.Do you have any lifes at all. While some of you may not like circuses ,clearly many thousands do,so dont try to force your views onto other people. I see the animal rites looney brigade have found thissite,and rang round all there friends to tell theam to post comments lol your hilarious,but i dont think the Public take much notice of sad people such has David Mitchell with his own Iq level.Dont assume people Iq levels ,just because they want to take kids to a circus you prat
Grammar, spelling, punctuation. Just shows the benefits of Ed Youcaishern, Ed Youcaishern, Ed Youcaishern.
Posted by: Lee on 11:03pm Wed 21 May 08
Lol,another animal rights looney.There reply to everything is always to do with grammar and spelling,they have got nothing better to say.Dont get run over by a bus will you chris,id hate you miss the circus!
Lol,another animal rights looney.There reply to everything is always to do with grammar and spelling,they have got nothing better to say.Dont get run over by a bus will you chris,id hate you miss the circus!
Posted by: Chingford United Netball Team, E4 on 9:38am Thu 22 May 08
[quote][bold]Jean[/bold] wrote:
In response to the post by 'catto' that animal rights activists have too much time on their hands- what utter nonsense! What we have is compassion and respect for wildlife that ultimately has the right to enjoy their lives in the habitats that they were born in to. Do these ignorant, ill- formed people not realise that alot of circus animals are taken from the wild and NOT born in captivity. And in response to Mr Codgers claims that we are trying to get kids off the streets... does he think that a scruffy, antequated circus holds the answers?! It's about time that parents took more of a responsibility in educating their children about widlife and what human beings are subjecting these beautiful creatures to? Stuffing your child full of candyfloss and making them watch tigers perform unnatural behaviours in a circus ring is gross, irresponsible and a total lack of imagination and is not the way to entertain or educate the future generation of animal lovers. [/quote] Well I myself am a law abiding citizen, University Educated, above average IQ. I Have worked hard all my life an myself am an animal lover.
I like the circus and will be going. If you dont like it then dont go.
Have you tried meeting with the events organisers to see how the animals are treated, on what basis are you saying the animals are being mistreated?
Dont both replying with a load of rubbish because you have not been to this circus.
Go and visit the circus speak to the owners and then report back to the Guardian - you can do a report on it. Until then stop moan moan moaning
Jean wrote:
In response to the post by 'catto' that animal rights activists have too much time on their hands- what utter nonsense! What we have is compassion and respect for wildlife that ultimately has the right to enjoy their lives in the habitats that they were born in to. Do these ignorant, ill- formed people not realise that alot of circus animals are taken from the wild and NOT born in captivity. And in response to Mr Codgers claims that we are trying to get kids off the streets... does he think that a scruffy, antequated circus holds the answers?! It's about time that parents took more of a responsibility in educating their children about widlife and what human beings are subjecting these beautiful creatures to? Stuffing your child full of candyfloss and making them watch tigers perform unnatural behaviours in a circus ring is gross, irresponsible and a total lack of imagination and is not the way to entertain or educate the future generation of animal lovers.
Well I myself am a law abiding citizen, University Educated, above average IQ. I Have worked hard all my life an myself am an animal lover.
I like the circus and will be going. If you dont like it then dont go.
Have you tried meeting with the events organisers to see how the animals are treated, on what basis are you saying the animals are being mistreated?
Dont both replying with a load of rubbish because you have not been to this circus.
Go and visit the circus speak to the owners and then report back to the Guardian - you can do a report on it. Until then stop moan moan moaning
Posted by: Lulu, Midlands on 10:03am Thu 22 May 08
LEE, It's not 'assuming' that the people that consider circuses are alright have a low IQ, it is plainly 'evident' to those of us that are intelligent. The lack of intelligence and understanding can been seen a mile off, of course, you wouldn't know that, otherwise they would 'get' that circuses are incredibly cruel to the animals and that they are disgusting places for a compassionate thinking person to even contemplate visiting. Selfish and stupid people like you do not demonstrate one ounce of compassion or thought for the animals involved. That is plainly not very intelligent. Do you understand now how it is extremely evident to those that do have intelligence? Incidentally Martin Lacey can be heard online being interviewed for radio where he gets extremely angry and you can hear the interviewer telling him to leave him and his equipment alone. You can hear all the crashing of his equipment going on in the background! A very gentle man indeed, if that is what he does on a perfectly reasanable interview what do you suppose he does to vulnerable animals in private? Use your heads some of you for goodness sake and stop confirming your ignorance! Have any of thought how cruel it is just to be permanently in cage? The animals are drvien insane with that alone. THINK!
LEE, It's not 'assuming' that the people that consider circuses are alright have a low IQ, it is plainly 'evident' to those of us that are intelligent. The lack of intelligence and understanding can been seen a mile off, of course, you wouldn't know that, otherwise they would 'get' that circuses are incredibly cruel to the animals and that they are disgusting places for a compassionate thinking person to even contemplate visiting. Selfish and stupid people like you do not demonstrate one ounce of compassion or thought for the animals involved. That is plainly not very intelligent. Do you understand now how it is extremely evident to those that do have intelligence? Incidentally Martin Lacey can be heard online being interviewed for radio where he gets extremely angry and you can hear the interviewer telling him to leave him and his equipment alone. You can hear all the crashing of his equipment going on in the background! A very gentle man indeed, if that is what he does on a perfectly reasanable interview what do you suppose he does to vulnerable animals in private? Use your heads some of you for goodness sake and stop confirming your ignorance! Have any of thought how cruel it is just to be permanently in cage? The animals are drvien insane with that alone. THINK!
Posted by: Lulu, Midlands on 10:26am Thu 22 May 08
[quote][bold]Chingford United Netball Team[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Jean[/bold] wrote:
In response to the post by \\\'catto\\\' that animal rights activists have too much time on their hands- what utter nonsense! What we have is compassion and respect for wildlife that ultimately has the right to enjoy their lives in the habitats that they were born in to. Do these ignorant, ill- formed people not realise that alot of circus animals are taken from the wild and NOT born in captivity. And in response to Mr Codgers claims that we are trying to get kids off the streets... does he think that a scruffy, antequated circus holds the answers?! It\\\'s about time that parents took more of a responsibility in educating their children about widlife and what human beings are subjecting these beautiful creatures to? Stuffing your child full of candyfloss and making them watch tigers perform unnatural behaviours in a circus ring is gross, irresponsible and a total lack of imagination and is not the way to entertain or educate the future generation of animal lovers. [/quote] Well I myself am a law abiding citizen, University Educated, above average IQ. I Have worked hard all my life an myself am an animal lover.
I like the circus and will be going. If you dont like it then dont go.
Have you tried meeting with the events organisers to see how the animals are treated, on what basis are you saying the animals are being mistreated?
Dont both replying with a load of rubbish because you have not been to this circus.
Go and visit the circus speak to the owners and then report back to the Guardian - you can do a report on it. Until then stop moan moan moaning[/quote] CHINGFORD. You demonstrate that it is in fact YOU that needs to look into it. Your comments show that you are clearly unaware. Thankfully, the majority of people nowadays do know how the animals are 'broken' and about all the vile 'training' tools they use. The hidden spikes, whips, sticks metal bars etc... Dont you think they should be in their natural habitat? Isn't that more intelligent thought? Wild animals made to perform silly tricks for selfish uncaring people? And what about the safety aspect, ever think about that? What about when the animals flip after years of abuse and go on a rampage and people have been killed, doesnt that suggest anything to you? How can you think of yourself as an animal lover and yet consider circuses to be alright? That doesnt make any sense..
I am sorry but have you never heard of the expression 'educated idiot'?
Sometimes educated people only know about intellectual stuff and books and do not possess natural intelligence. So dont try to use university education as proof of intelligence because it certainly isn't! That's a different thing altogether. Do you seriously think that people who speak against circuses haven't done the things you suggest? Of course they have, that is absolutely foolish because how do you think that they know about how bad it is in the first place if they havent looked into it? Oh boy! Have you heard Martin Lacey online? You know nothing clearly its not moaning its called compassion and caring for something other than yourself.
Chingford United Netball Team wrote:
Jean wrote:
In response to the post by 'catto' that animal rights activists have too much time on their hands- what utter nonsense! What we have is compassion and respect for wildlife that ultimately has the right to enjoy their lives in the habitats that they were born in to. Do these ignorant, ill- formed people not realise that alot of circus animals are taken from the wild and NOT born in captivity. And in response to Mr Codgers claims that we are trying to get kids off the streets... does he think that a scruffy, antequated circus holds the answers?! It's about time that parents took more of a responsibility in educating their children about widlife and what human beings are subjecting these beautiful creatures to? Stuffing your child full of candyfloss and making them watch tigers perform unnatural behaviours in a circus ring is gross, irresponsible and a total lack of imagination and is not the way to entertain or educate the future generation of animal lovers.
Well I myself am a law abiding citizen, University Educated, above average IQ. I Have worked hard all my life an myself am an animal lover.
I like the circus and will be going. If you dont like it then dont go.
Have you tried meeting with the events organisers to see how the animals are treated, on what basis are you saying the animals are being mistreated?
Dont both replying with a load of rubbish because you have not been to this circus.
Go and visit the circus speak to the owners and then report back to the Guardian - you can do a report on it. Until then stop moan moan moaning
CHINGFORD. You demonstrate that it is in fact YOU that needs to look into it. Your comments show that you are clearly unaware. Thankfully, the majority of people nowadays do know how the animals are 'broken' and about all the vile 'training' tools they use. The hidden spikes, whips, sticks metal bars etc... Dont you think they should be in their natural habitat? Isn't that more intelligent thought? Wild animals made to perform silly tricks for selfish uncaring people? And what about the safety aspect, ever think about that? What about when the animals flip after years of abuse and go on a rampage and people have been killed, doesnt that suggest anything to you? How can you think of yourself as an animal lover and yet consider circuses to be alright? That doesnt make any sense..
I am sorry but have you never heard of the expression 'educated idiot'?
Sometimes educated people only know about intellectual stuff and books and do not possess natural intelligence. So dont try to use university education as proof of intelligence because it certainly isn't! That's a different thing altogether. Do you seriously think that people who speak against circuses haven't done the things you suggest? Of course they have, that is absolutely foolish because how do you think that they know about how bad it is in the first place if they havent looked into it? Oh boy! Have you heard Martin Lacey online? You know nothing clearly its not moaning its called compassion and caring for something other than yourself.
Posted by: Chingford United Netball Team, E4 on 10:43am Thu 22 May 08
Lulu,
This is a democratic society and if I wish to go to the circus I will.
If you want to make a difference with your life go to Burma or China and help out with the humanatarian aid.
Lulu,
This is a democratic society and if I wish to go to the circus I will.
If you want to make a difference with your life go to Burma or China and help out with the humanatarian aid.
Posted by: Lulu, Midlands on 10:51am Thu 22 May 08
[quote][bold]Chingford United Netball Team[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Jean[/bold] wrote:
In response to the post by 'catto' that animal rights activists have too much time on their hands- what utter nonsense! What we have is compassion and respect for wildlife that ultimately has the right to enjoy their lives in the habitats that they were born in to. Do these ignorant, ill- formed people not realise that alot of circus animals are taken from the wild and NOT born in captivity. And in response to Mr Codgers claims that we are trying to get kids off the streets... does he think that a scruffy, antequated circus holds the answers?! It's about time that parents took more of a responsibility in educating their children about widlife and what human beings are subjecting these beautiful creatures to? Stuffing your child full of candyfloss and making them watch tigers perform unnatural behaviours in a circus ring is gross, irresponsible and a total lack of imagination and is not the way to entertain or educate the future generation of animal lovers. [/quote] Well I myself am a law abiding citizen, University Educated, above average IQ. I Have worked hard all my life an myself am an animal lover.
I like the circus and will be going. If you dont like it then dont go.
Have you tried meeting with the events organisers to see how the animals are treated, on what basis are you saying the animals are being mistreated?
Dont both replying with a load of rubbish because you have not been to this circus.
Go and visit the circus speak to the owners and then report back to the Guardian - you can do a report on it. Until then stop moan moan moaning[/quote] Chingford, Education does not provide what is known as 'natural intelligence'Intelle
ctual intelligence is gained from books, tutors etc and natural intelligence is obtained from observation, an enquiring mind and basic common sense. They are in no way the same thing so please don't try to use education as proof of superiority of intelligence because it is not. In fact it can be the reverse, have you never heard the expression 'educated idiot'? There are a lot of them about.
I dont know how you can call yourself an animal lover and yet support the cruelty involved in circuses. That doesnt make any sense.
Do you really think that the people that oppose circuses do it on a whim and with no knowledge? that would be absolutelty crazy and says more about you than them. Of course they have met with these people, perhaps more regularly than you think, use your head. Unlike you, it is obvious that they HAVE thoroughly looked into it whilst using basic common sense. A wild animal spending its life in a cage only coming out to perform silly tricks to selfish uncaring people? Who do you have to meet do know that is wrong? what about the 'training' tools spikes, whips, sticks metal bars. Are you aware of the so called 'training methods' and the court cases about the cruelty to the animals? If you havent you must live under a rock. There is overwhelming evidence of creulty. Thankfully, most people nowadays are aware of those things even if you are not. Of course people who HAVE visited the circus to see, you really do underestimate things dont you? Dont you think wild animals should be in thier natural habitat? isnt that intelligent thought?
Have you heard M Laceys radio interview? you sound like you ought to. THINK
Chingford United Netball Team wrote:
Jean wrote:
In response to the post by 'catto' that animal rights activists have too much time on their hands- what utter nonsense! What we have is compassion and respect for wildlife that ultimately has the right to enjoy their lives in the habitats that they were born in to. Do these ignorant, ill- formed people not realise that alot of circus animals are taken from the wild and NOT born in captivity. And in response to Mr Codgers claims that we are trying to get kids off the streets... does he think that a scruffy, antequated circus holds the answers?! It's about time that parents took more of a responsibility in educating their children about widlife and what human beings are subjecting these beautiful creatures to? Stuffing your child full of candyfloss and making them watch tigers perform unnatural behaviours in a circus ring is gross, irresponsible and a total lack of imagination and is not the way to entertain or educate the future generation of animal lovers.
Well I myself am a law abiding citizen, University Educated, above average IQ. I Have worked hard all my life an myself am an animal lover.
I like the circus and will be going. If you dont like it then dont go.
Have you tried meeting with the events organisers to see how the animals are treated, on what basis are you saying the animals are being mistreated?
Dont both replying with a load of rubbish because you have not been to this circus.
Go and visit the circus speak to the owners and then report back to the Guardian - you can do a report on it. Until then stop moan moan moaning
Chingford, Education does not provide what is known as 'natural intelligence'Intelle
ctual intelligence is gained from books, tutors etc and natural intelligence is obtained from observation, an enquiring mind and basic common sense. They are in no way the same thing so please don't try to use education as proof of superiority of intelligence because it is not. In fact it can be the reverse, have you never heard the expression 'educated idiot'? There are a lot of them about.
I dont know how you can call yourself an animal lover and yet support the cruelty involved in circuses. That doesnt make any sense.
Do you really think that the people that oppose circuses do it on a whim and with no knowledge? that would be absolutelty crazy and says more about you than them. Of course they have met with these people, perhaps more regularly than you think, use your head. Unlike you, it is obvious that they HAVE thoroughly looked into it whilst using basic common sense. A wild animal spending its life in a cage only coming out to perform silly tricks to selfish uncaring people? Who do you have to meet do know that is wrong? what about the 'training' tools spikes, whips, sticks metal bars. Are you aware of the so called 'training methods' and the court cases about the cruelty to the animals? If you havent you must live under a rock. There is overwhelming evidence of creulty. Thankfully, most people nowadays are aware of those things even if you are not. Of course people who HAVE visited the circus to see, you really do underestimate things dont you? Dont you think wild animals should be in thier natural habitat? isnt that intelligent thought?
Have you heard M Laceys radio interview? you sound like you ought to. THINK
Posted by: Lulu, Midlands on 10:59am Thu 22 May 08
[quote][bold]Chingford United Netball Team[/bold] wrote:
Lulu,
This is a democratic society and if I wish to go to the circus I will.
If you want to make a difference with your life go to Burma or China and help out with the humanatarian aid.[/quote] Go - but it doesnt alter any of the facts about circuses. They are cruel places and if you go you actively support cruelty! It's as simple as that! Democratic or not those are the facts! Ignore the severe cruelty if you like but it wont make it untrue.
Chingford United Netball Team wrote:
Lulu,
This is a democratic society and if I wish to go to the circus I will.
If you want to make a difference with your life go to Burma or China and help out with the humanatarian aid.
Go - but it doesnt alter any of the facts about circuses. They are cruel places and if you go you actively support cruelty! It's as simple as that! Democratic or not those are the facts! Ignore the severe cruelty if you like but it wont make it untrue.
Posted by: Lulu, MIdlands on 11:01am Thu 22 May 08
Chingford, incidentally no comment regarding the intelligent and relevant points I made then?
Chingford, incidentally no comment regarding the intelligent and relevant points I made then?
Posted by: Chingfor United Netball Team, E4 on 11:22am Thu 22 May 08
[quote][bold]Lulu[/bold] wrote:
Chingford, incidentally no comment regarding the intelligent and relevant points I made then?[/quote] Lulu,
Regardless of your points I will be going. I have been before and saw no evidence of animal cruelty.
If you are that small minded and it makes you feel better then yes you are more intelligent than me and I bow down to you.
No doubt there will be further posts on here from the superior intelligent not approving. However as I said before go and make a difference to mankind.
Try donating to charity, do a good deed once a day. Help an old lady across the road. Be a good samaritan.
Or perhaps you are an armchair do-gooder?
Lulu wrote:
Chingford, incidentally no comment regarding the intelligent and relevant points I made then?
Lulu,
Regardless of your points I will be going. I have been before and saw no evidence of animal cruelty.
If you are that small minded and it makes you feel better then yes you are more intelligent than me and I bow down to you.
No doubt there will be further posts on here from the superior intelligent not approving. However as I said before go and make a difference to mankind.
Try donating to charity, do a good deed once a day. Help an old lady across the road. Be a good samaritan.
Or perhaps you are an armchair do-gooder?
Posted by: Antiracist, E17 on 3:16pm Thu 22 May 08
[quote][bold]Observer (the original)[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Sue[/bold] wrote:
Why has Mr Khalid been banned moderator?[/quote] Rumour has it that Mr Khalid went to a circus preview and was eaten by a tiger.[/quote] He's playing with his mates over at the Aliens thread, http://www.guardian-
series.co.uk/news/wa
lthamforest/walthamf
orestnews/display.va
r.2286885.0.0.php
Don't go and disturb them, there's an alien spaceship beaming down on them right now.
Observer (the original) wrote:
Sue wrote:
Why has Mr Khalid been banned moderator?
Rumour has it that Mr Khalid went to a circus preview and was eaten by a tiger.
He's playing with his mates over at the Aliens thread, http://www.guardian-
series.co.uk/news/wa
lthamforest/walthamf
orestnews/display.va
r.2286885.0.0.php
Don't go and disturb them, there's an alien spaceship beaming down on them right now.
Posted by: Lulu, Midlands on 3:19pm Thu 22 May 08
[quote][bold]Chingfor United Netball Team[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Lulu[/bold] wrote:
Chingford, incidentally no comment regarding the intelligent and relevant points I made then?[/quote] Lulu,
Regardless of your points I will be going. I have been before and saw no evidence of animal cruelty.
If you are that small minded and it makes you feel better then yes you are more intelligent than me and I bow down to you.
No doubt there will be further posts on here from the superior intelligent not approving. However as I said before go and make a difference to mankind.
Try donating to charity, do a good deed once a day. Help an old lady across the road. Be a good samaritan.
Or perhaps you are an armchair do-gooder?
[/quote] Do you actually expect them to SHOW you the cruelty? - they hide it. The 'training doesnt happen in front of people for a start. What about the court cases about circus cruelty? Have you seen their 'training tools' that they use on the animals? An animal kept in a cage made to perform silly tricks, is that not cruel in itself? An elephant standing on its head - absolutely ridiculous. They should be in their natural habitat. Walk round the back next time you go and take a real good look. What about when they go on a rampage? As well as the physical abuse they are under mental abuse and are driven utterly insane. You seem to choose to ignore this. Think about how they must get the animals to perform, gentle coaxing? soft words? tickling? I dont think so. Me? small minded? - that sounds a bit like projection to me and its not about me its about cruelty to animals. I simply dont accept things without question, is that wrong?
And excuse me, but it was you that introduced your education, not me and you even spoke of being a law abiding citizen! whats that about? and what the heck has that got to do with anything? Its that sort of comment that betrays your personality. Look in the mirror and put your own house in order, but people like you never seem to. They remain stuck with the same attitudes all their lives, never growing or learning any different. Have you heard of the book 'When elephants Weep' - its written by an ex circus trainer who one day was beating a young elephant (its all in the book)and noticed that the young elephant was crying and realised in an instant what he was doing and got out of it and turned his life around and wrote this book to educate others as to the shocking truth of circuses.
No wonder you are so oblivious, you make assumptions all the time. How will you ever find out the realities with a closed mind and an attitude like that?
For example, how do you know I dont try to make a difference to mankind? How do you know I don't donate to charity? do a good deed once a day? Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and also very unimaginative and often used when you have no real points or argument. You are so transparent, dont you realise that? I am not interested in replies containing this kind of nonsense so please only reply if you wish to answer the valid and relevant points that I have made. Armchair do-gooder? Here we go again. Again, how about acting like an intelligent adult and answering what I said?
Chingfor United Netball Team wrote:
Lulu wrote:
Chingford, incidentally no comment regarding the intelligent and relevant points I made then?
Lulu,
Regardless of your points I will be going. I have been before and saw no evidence of animal cruelty.
If you are that small minded and it makes you feel better then yes you are more intelligent than me and I bow down to you.
No doubt there will be further posts on here from the superior intelligent not approving. However as I said before go and make a difference to mankind.
Try donating to charity, do a good deed once a day. Help an old lady across the road. Be a good samaritan.
Or perhaps you are an armchair do-gooder?
Do you actually expect them to SHOW you the cruelty? - they hide it. The 'training doesnt happen in front of people for a start. What about the court cases about circus cruelty? Have you seen their 'training tools' that they use on the animals? An animal kept in a cage made to perform silly tricks, is that not cruel in itself? An elephant standing on its head - absolutely ridiculous. They should be in their natural habitat. Walk round the back next time you go and take a real good look. What about when they go on a rampage? As well as the physical abuse they are under mental abuse and are driven utterly insane. You seem to choose to ignore this. Think about how they must get the animals to perform, gentle coaxing? soft words? tickling? I dont think so. Me? small minded? - that sounds a bit like projection to me and its not about me its about cruelty to animals. I simply dont accept things without question, is that wrong?
And excuse me, but it was you that introduced your education, not me and you even spoke of being a law abiding citizen! whats that about? and what the heck has that got to do with anything? Its that sort of comment that betrays your personality. Look in the mirror and put your own house in order, but people like you never seem to. They remain stuck with the same attitudes all their lives, never growing or learning any different. Have you heard of the book 'When elephants Weep' - its written by an ex circus trainer who one day was beating a young elephant (its all in the book)and noticed that the young elephant was crying and realised in an instant what he was doing and got out of it and turned his life around and wrote this book to educate others as to the shocking truth of circuses.
No wonder you are so oblivious, you make assumptions all the time. How will you ever find out the realities with a closed mind and an attitude like that?
For example, how do you know I dont try to make a difference to mankind? How do you know I don't donate to charity? do a good deed once a day? Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and also very unimaginative and often used when you have no real points or argument. You are so transparent, dont you realise that? I am not interested in replies containing this kind of nonsense so please only reply if you wish to answer the valid and relevant points that I have made. Armchair do-gooder? Here we go again. Again, how about acting like an intelligent adult and answering what I said?
Posted by: Mrs Clarke, woodford on 3:50pm Thu 22 May 08
Totaly agree with you Lulu glad somebody has some sense Chingfor United Netball Teamense seems to talk a load of crap!
Totaly agree with you Lulu glad somebody has some sense Chingfor United Netball Teamense seems to talk a load of crap!
Posted by: Chingford United Netball Team, E4 on 8:13am Fri 23 May 08
[quote][bold]Mrs Clarke[/bold] wrote:
Totaly agree with you Lulu glad somebody has some sense Chingfor United Netball Teamense seems to talk a load of crap![/quote] Regardless of what you say I will be going to the fair.
I would like to point out that it is people like Lulu who make personal comments and sarcasm and when I reply in the same way she does not like it.
A case of double standards.
I also still think you are an armchair do-gooder, because if you were not then my comments would not have upset you.
I feel I have touched a nerve.
Mrs Clarke wrote:
Totaly agree with you Lulu glad somebody has some sense Chingfor United Netball Teamense seems to talk a load of crap!
Regardless of what you say I will be going to the fair.
I would like to point out that it is people like Lulu who make personal comments and sarcasm and when I reply in the same way she does not like it.
A case of double standards.
I also still think you are an armchair do-gooder, because if you were not then my comments would not have upset you.
I feel I have touched a nerve.
Posted by: Tony Timms, Hastings on 8:52pm Sat 24 May 08
I wonder why the antis have not yet mentioned that two separate scientific studies were carried out-both of which concluded there was no reason to ban circuses with animals?
I trust people will be intelligent enough to ignore any propaganda, go and see the show, and make their own minds up
I wonder why the antis have not yet mentioned that two separate scientific studies were carried out-both of which concluded there was no reason to ban circuses with animals?
I trust people will be intelligent enough to ignore any propaganda, go and see the show, and make their own minds up
Posted by: Lulu, Midlands on 5:11pm Sun 25 May 08
Propaganda? Sorry, but that is a ridiculous thing to say/assume. I have already spoken about personal observation anyway. Take a proper look at the animals around the back next time you go. Is it acceptable to keep them in cages? Elephants are highly social animals and stay in large groups and naturally travel miles each day, far removed from their existence in a circus. That is inflicting massive suffering in itself! You havent said anything about the bullwhips etc??? What about the rampages that the animals have gone on? Why do you think they do that? The public are in danger from the wild animals in circuses!
Thankfully a large proportion of the general public don't tolerate circuses and thats why a lot of have been banned. You are certainly a minority thank goodness! They have to make these wild animals absolutely petrified of them to get them to perform, obviously, and I didnt need to be Einstein to figure that out. Honestly give me a break! Oh why not tell me more about this scientific study? I'd be very interested to hear about it so that I can respond..
Propaganda? Sorry, but that is a ridiculous thing to say/assume. I have already spoken about personal observation anyway. Take a proper look at the animals around the back next time you go. Is it acceptable to keep them in cages? Elephants are highly social animals and stay in large groups and naturally travel miles each day, far removed from their existence in a circus. That is inflicting massive suffering in itself! You havent said anything about the bullwhips etc??? What about the rampages that the animals have gone on? Why do you think they do that? The public are in danger from the wild animals in circuses!
Thankfully a large proportion of the general public don't tolerate circuses and thats why a lot of have been banned. You are certainly a minority thank goodness! They have to make these wild animals absolutely petrified of them to get them to perform, obviously, and I didnt need to be Einstein to figure that out. Honestly give me a break! Oh why not tell me more about this scientific study? I'd be very interested to hear about it so that I can respond..
Posted by: Lulu, Midlands on 5:24pm Sun 25 May 08
[quote][bold]Chingford United Netball Team[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Mrs Clarke[/bold] wrote:
Totaly agree with you Lulu glad somebody has some sense Chingfor United Netball Teamense seems to talk a load of crap![/quote] Regardless of what you say I will be going to the fair.
I would like to point out that it is people like Lulu who make personal comments and sarcasm and when I reply in the same way she does not like it.
A case of double standards.
I also still think you are an armchair do-gooder, because if you were not then my comments would not have upset you.
I feel I have touched a nerve.[/quote] Like I previously said - Go - but it wont make what it untrue. Go round the back as well and take a proper look. Your earlier comments imply that you expect them to display the cruelty to you. Would it please you to think that you have touched a nerve? but again I say it, it's not about me. It's about cruelty to circus animals. Slur me all you like I am unaffected when it comes to talking about animal cruelty. That is my only focus.
Your comments 'upset' (your words) me because they are based on ignorance and do nothing to help stop cruelty. Thats it - period! Actually, I see it as a good opportuntity to speak up about things.
Chingford United Netball Team wrote:
Mrs Clarke wrote:
Totaly agree with you Lulu glad somebody has some sense Chingfor United Netball Teamense seems to talk a load of crap!
Regardless of what you say I will be going to the fair.
I would like to point out that it is people like Lulu who make personal comments and sarcasm and when I reply in the same way she does not like it.
A case of double standards.
I also still think you are an armchair do-gooder, because if you were not then my comments would not have upset you.
I feel I have touched a nerve.
Like I previously said - Go - but it wont make what it untrue. Go round the back as well and take a proper look. Your earlier comments imply that you expect them to display the cruelty to you. Would it please you to think that you have touched a nerve? but again I say it, it's not about me. It's about cruelty to circus animals. Slur me all you like I am unaffected when it comes to talking about animal cruelty. That is my only focus.
Your comments 'upset' (your words) me because they are based on ignorance and do nothing to help stop cruelty. Thats it - period! Actually, I see it as a good opportuntity to speak up about things.
Posted by: Lulu, Midlands on 5:32pm Sun 25 May 08
[quote][bold]Mrs Clarke[/bold] wrote:
Totaly agree with you Lulu glad somebody has some sense Chingfor United Netball Teamense seems to talk a load of crap![/quote] Thanks - it's nice to hear that. Doesn't he/she just.... It's really hard to believe that people can be so ignorant in 2008. Some people seem to go go about their lives with their eyes and ears shut and are years behind others with their thinking.
Don't they know anything about animal behaviour? Jeez.....
Mrs Clarke wrote:
Totaly agree with you Lulu glad somebody has some sense Chingfor United Netball Teamense seems to talk a load of crap!
Thanks - it's nice to hear that. Doesn't he/she just.... It's really hard to believe that people can be so ignorant in 2008. Some people seem to go go about their lives with their eyes and ears shut and are years behind others with their thinking.
Don't they know anything about animal behaviour? Jeez.....
Posted by: Tony Timms, Hastings on 7:52pm Sun 25 May 08
Sorry I was wrong, propaganda & IGNORANCE!
Circuses have not been banned.I have seen the animals numerous times after the show and while being trained.You do not need to be Einstein to realise it would be a very bad idea to mistreat a group of Tigers and lock yourself in a cage with them!
The scientific studies are-Animals in Circuses & Zoos Dr.Marthe Kiley-Worthington 1990(commissioned by the RSPCA )
and Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses DEFRA 2007.
Sorry I was wrong, propaganda & IGNORANCE!
Circuses have not been banned.I have seen the animals numerous times after the show and while being trained.You do not need to be Einstein to realise it would be a very bad idea to mistreat a group of Tigers and lock yourself in a cage with them!
The scientific studies are-Animals in Circuses & Zoos Dr.Marthe Kiley-Worthington 1990(commissioned by the RSPCA )
and Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses DEFRA 2007.
Posted by: Deborah Stott, Chigwell on 12:42pm Wed 28 May 08
There is no place for Animal Circuses in the 21st century,there is plenty of evidence that proves terrible abuse is used to make these poor creatures perform,ban them now!
There is no place for Animal Circuses in the 21st century,there is plenty of evidence that proves terrible abuse is used to make these poor creatures perform,ban them now!
Posted by: Lulu, Midlands on 3:23pm Wed 28 May 08
[quote][bold]Tony Timms[/bold] wrote:
Sorry I was wrong, propaganda & IGNORANCE!
Circuses have not been banned.I have seen the animals numerous times after the show and while being trained.You do not need to be Einstein to realise it would be a very bad idea to mistreat a group of Tigers and lock yourself in a cage with them!
The scientific studies are-Animals in Circuses & Zoos Dr.Marthe Kiley-Worthington 1990(commissioned by the RSPCA )
and Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses DEFRA 2007.[/quote] Personally, I dont believe propaganda only hard evidence, and I dont need any scientific study to convince me that wild animals kept in cages for the biggest part of their lives and being made to perform silly unnatural tricks in the most unnatural surroundings possible is not only cruel but dangerous. I have also seen the animals round the back numerous times and did not see anything acceptable in any way whatsoever! Sad looking chained up elephants, rocking backwards and forwards, tigers pacing in cages. which is typical behaviour if distresseds animal. Would you like to be put in a cage? I am afraid that I have to come to the conclusion that you simply do not possess the awareness that it takes to recognise the suffering that it causes the animals. In your ignorance you also seem to be demonstrating that you are unaware that the animals are completley 'broken' at a young age so that when they reach the cages to perform they are absolutely terrifed of the 'trainers'. So your notion that it would be a very bad idea to mistreat a group of tigers is only correct IF they had not already been completly broken! In fact that absolutely supports what I am saying entirely! Think about it, there is no way on this earth that anyone could put 'normal' wild tigers in a cage without them being broken and terrifed already! You didn't have any comment about the book 'When elephants Weep' by the ex-elephant trainer who realised whilst he was beating a young elephant to break her just what he was doing when he saw her tears! Have a heart! We all know of reports of animals that HAVE reacted and gone on a rampage killing people because they are driven to distraction. Thats no secret. Are you daft enough to actually think these animals perform willingly? "Yes of course I'll do that unnatural trick that almost every night for years, that trick which puts me in danger of physical harm as well,no trouble! Use your flipping head and stop wasting my time! You are wrong! Circuses indeed HAVE been banned by certain councils! What is it? Do you have have a financial interest in circuses, is that it?
Scientists of course are always right.. Yeh right! Let common sense prevail!
Tony Timms wrote:
Sorry I was wrong, propaganda & IGNORANCE!
Circuses have not been banned.I have seen the animals numerous times after the show and while being trained.You do not need to be Einstein to realise it would be a very bad idea to mistreat a group of Tigers and lock yourself in a cage with them!
The scientific studies are-Animals in Circuses & Zoos Dr.Marthe Kiley-Worthington 1990(commissioned by the RSPCA )
and Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses DEFRA 2007.
Personally, I dont believe propaganda only hard evidence, and I dont need any scientific study to convince me that wild animals kept in cages for the biggest part of their lives and being made to perform silly unnatural tricks in the most unnatural surroundings possible is not only cruel but dangerous. I have also seen the animals round the back numerous times and did not see anything acceptable in any way whatsoever! Sad looking chained up elephants, rocking backwards and forwards, tigers pacing in cages. which is typical behaviour if distresseds animal. Would you like to be put in a cage? I am afraid that I have to come to the conclusion that you simply do not possess the awareness that it takes to recognise the suffering that it causes the animals. In your ignorance you also seem to be demonstrating that you are unaware that the animals are completley 'broken' at a young age so that when they reach the cages to perform they are absolutely terrifed of the 'trainers'. So your notion that it would be a very bad idea to mistreat a group of tigers is only correct IF they had not already been completly broken! In fact that absolutely supports what I am saying entirely! Think about it, there is no way on this earth that anyone could put 'normal' wild tigers in a cage without them being broken and terrifed already! You didn't have any comment about the book 'When elephants Weep' by the ex-elephant trainer who realised whilst he was beating a young elephant to break her just what he was doing when he saw her tears! Have a heart! We all know of reports of animals that HAVE reacted and gone on a rampage killing people because they are driven to distraction. Thats no secret. Are you daft enough to actually think these animals perform willingly? "Yes of course I'll do that unnatural trick that almost every night for years, that trick which puts me in danger of physical harm as well,no trouble! Use your flipping head and stop wasting my time! You are wrong! Circuses indeed HAVE been banned by certain councils! What is it? Do you have have a financial interest in circuses, is that it?
Scientists of course are always right.. Yeh right! Let common sense prevail!
Posted by: Jean, East Mids on 11:30am Thu 29 May 08
That 'report' you mention (Tony Timms) do you actually know the full facts or just what the media published? One of the circuses that DEFRA visited with Inspectors did NOT even allow the vets to inspect their elephant properly. Had the vets been allowed to see the elephant in the conditions that she was kept in, then they would have noticed that she is arthritic and can hardly walk, never mind being transported round in a beast wagon for most of her life!!!!
In terms of reward and treat training that you may be able to use with domesticated animals such as cats and dogs, you simply cannot do this with wild animals. The only way to train these animals is through FEAR! That is how they get their animals to perform in the ring! Tell me, when was the last time ANY circus allowed the public to see how they 'train' their animals- they dont! It's all done in their winter quaters behind closed doors! If they had nothing to hide, why don't they allow the public and children see how they train these animals?
That 'report' you mention (Tony Timms) do you actually know the full facts or just what the media published? One of the circuses that DEFRA visited with Inspectors did NOT even allow the vets to inspect their elephant properly. Had the vets been allowed to see the elephant in the conditions that she was kept in, then they would have noticed that she is arthritic and can hardly walk, never mind being transported round in a beast wagon for most of her life!!!!
In terms of reward and treat training that you may be able to use with domesticated animals such as cats and dogs, you simply cannot do this with wild animals. The only way to train these animals is through FEAR! That is how they get their animals to perform in the ring! Tell me, when was the last time ANY circus allowed the public to see how they 'train' their animals- they dont! It's all done in their winter quaters behind closed doors! If they had nothing to hide, why don't they allow the public and children see how they train these animals?
Posted by: Tony Timms, Hastings on 4:24pm Sat 31 May 08
LULU.
You only want hard evidence, but choose to ignore the two major scientific studies on the subject.I presume because they disprove your arguments.
Yes elephants do go on the rampage, both in the wild and in captivity.This is for various reasons including being in "must". It is not specific to circus or how (if) they have been trained.
I am aware of the book "When Elephants weep", by the writer Jeffrey Masson who is anti Zoo and Circus.He says he is against any form of captivity for animals-yet keeps 3 rats and 3 cats as pets.The word hypocrite springs to mind.
With regard training Tigers, they are bred in captivity and trained from a young age.You would have trouble training any animal once it was above a certain age.
Do I have a financial interest in Circus, no.Am I a Circus fan, yes.
Lastly your comment saying you saw "sad looking chained up elephants".
Really?
Are you sure?
Bearing in mind there is only one circus elephant in the whole of the UK, and she does not even appear in the show.
Propaganda, ignorance,
lies and hypocrisy.
LULU.
You only want hard evidence, but choose to ignore the two major scientific studies on the subject.I presume because they disprove your arguments.
Yes elephants do go on the rampage, both in the wild and in captivity.This is for various reasons including being in "must". It is not specific to circus or how (if) they have been trained.
I am aware of the book "When Elephants weep", by the writer Jeffrey Masson who is anti Zoo and Circus.He says he is against any form of captivity for animals-yet keeps 3 rats and 3 cats as pets.The word hypocrite springs to mind.
With regard training Tigers, they are bred in captivity and trained from a young age.You would have trouble training any animal once it was above a certain age.
Do I have a financial interest in Circus, no.Am I a Circus fan, yes.
Lastly your comment saying you saw "sad looking chained up elephants".
Really?
Are you sure?
Bearing in mind there is only one circus elephant in the whole of the UK, and she does not even appear in the show.
Propaganda, ignorance,
lies and hypocrisy.
Posted by: Tony Timms, Hastings on 4:37pm Sat 31 May 08
[quote][bold]Jean[/bold] wrote:
That 'report' you mention (Tony Timms) do you actually know the full facts or just what the media published? One of the circuses that DEFRA visited with Inspectors did NOT even allow the vets to inspect their elephant properly. Had the vets been allowed to see the elephant in the conditions that she was kept in, then they would have noticed that she is arthritic and can hardly walk, never mind being transported round in a beast wagon for most of her life!!!! In terms of reward and treat training that you may be able to use with domesticated animals such as cats and dogs, you simply cannot do this with wild animals. The only way to train these animals is through FEAR! That is how they get their animals to perform in the ring! Tell me, when was the last time ANY circus allowed the public to see how they 'train' their animals- they dont! It's all done in their winter quaters behind closed doors! If they had nothing to hide, why don't they allow the public and children see how they train these animals? [/quote] I have read the report, in which the Chairman concludes to ban circuses with animals would be for political reasons not scientific ones.
The Great British Circus allowed the public in to watch training in April this year.They frequently include animal training during their shows, or you can see some on their DVDs.
You CAN use reward training for wild and domesticated animals.
Don't forget the fact that these domesticated animals were once wild!
Jean wrote:
That 'report' you mention (Tony Timms) do you actually know the full facts or just what the media published? One of the circuses that DEFRA visited with Inspectors did NOT even allow the vets to inspect their elephant properly. Had the vets been allowed to see the elephant in the conditions that she was kept in, then they would have noticed that she is arthritic and can hardly walk, never mind being transported round in a beast wagon for most of her life!!!! In terms of reward and treat training that you may be able to use with domesticated animals such as cats and dogs, you simply cannot do this with wild animals. The only way to train these animals is through FEAR! That is how they get their animals to perform in the ring! Tell me, when was the last time ANY circus allowed the public to see how they 'train' their animals- they dont! It's all done in their winter quaters behind closed doors! If they had nothing to hide, why don't they allow the public and children see how they train these animals?
I have read the report, in which the Chairman concludes to ban circuses with animals would be for political reasons not scientific ones.
The Great British Circus allowed the public in to watch training in April this year.They frequently include animal training during their shows, or you can see some on their DVDs.
You CAN use reward training for wild and domesticated animals.
Don't forget the fact that these domesticated animals were once wild!
Posted by: Jean, East Mids on 3:37pm Mon 2 Jun 08
You cannot liken a domesticated animal such as a dog-which will respond to reward training to that of an animal such as a lion or tiger. Don't forget that many circus animals were taken out of the wild and have not been born in captivity. There is NO WAY that they would respond to a reward system, they are trained using a fear technique. The Great British Circus may include 'training' in their DVD- it's just a PR stunt. Undercover footage shows a very, very different story. You should perhaps read some of the articles by an ex- circus training who blew the whistle on a circus he worked for. He said that he had witnessed an elephant crying because it had been whipped as a punishment for getting its trick wrong.
You cannot liken a domesticated animal such as a dog-which will respond to reward training to that of an animal such as a lion or tiger. Don't forget that many circus animals were taken out of the wild and have not been born in captivity. There is NO WAY that they would respond to a reward system, they are trained using a fear technique. The Great British Circus may include 'training' in their DVD- it's just a PR stunt. Undercover footage shows a very, very different story. You should perhaps read some of the articles by an ex- circus training who blew the whistle on a circus he worked for. He said that he had witnessed an elephant crying because it had been whipped as a punishment for getting its trick wrong.
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