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WALTHAM FOREST: Anti-terror strategy praised by ministers

8:36am Wednesday 4th June 2008

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THREE senior cabinet members visited Waltham Forest to launch a counter-terrorism strategy that has been partly inspired by projects in the borough.

The Government's Prevent strategy is a national plan to stop people becoming terrorists or violent extremists.

It contains guidelines for councils, schools and community groups and the police.

The Home Office is also providing an extra £12.5million to fund projects that challenge extremism.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, Schools Secretary Ed Balls and Communities Secretary Hazel Blears visited the Pastures Youth Centre, in Davies Lane, Leytonstone, to launch the strategy.

The Ministers spoke to young people from the Active Change Foundation, based in Lea Bridge Road, Leyton, and the Waltham Forest Young Muslim Leadership Scheme as well as pupils from Rush Croft School participating in a project pioneered by the council called Swapping Cultures.

All three projects have been cited by the Government as examples of the types of scheme it wants to promote under the Prevent strategy.

Ms Blears said: "It is a credit to the local authority that they have supported these types of project.

"We have not decided to come to Waltham Forest because we feel there is a particular problem with extremism in this area.

"It is because the local authority and other groups have been doing such good work."

Ms Blears denied the suggestion that the Prevent strategy is an unnecessarily top-down approach and said that councils often come to the Government asking it for advice on how to combat extremism.

She also denied a suggestion that changing the Government's foreign policy would lessen the threat of extremism.

Ms Blears added: "I think that is simplistic. There were attacks by al-Qaeda long before the Iraq war. But it is important that we debate these issues."

Council leader Clyde Loakes said the local authority deserves credit for taking a lead in the projects.

He said: "It is about building self-esteem and confidence so young people can challenge those people encouraging extremism.

"We have had three secretaries of state visit our borough today. That would never have happened a couple of years ago."

The Government says its new strategy will prevent people getting involved in extremism.

It includes advice for groups on how to work with vulnerable individuals and institutions to tackle radicalisation.

It supports mainstream voices and attempts to strengthen communities' ability to resist extremists.

A total of £12.5million will fund projects including extending police-led multi-agency projects, work in prisons and the community to tackle radicalisation among offenders and extra cash for grassroots projects.

Young people from three different projects in the borough chatted to the ministers about their ideas and experiences of tackling extremism.

The Waltham Forest Young Muslim Leaders development programme was set up with £60,000 of Government cash as a pilot project last August.

The programme consists of the Active Change Foundation (ACF), based in Lea Bridge Road, Leyton and the Leytonstone Muslim Community Centre.

ACF has worked with young people, mainly males, who live in the most deprived parts of Waltham Forest.

It teaches them about the risks of extremism as well as drugs, alcohol, anti-social behaviour and conflict resolution.

ACF director Hanif Qadir said the new Government initiative was "a step in the right direction" but a lot of work needs to be done.

Mr Qadir added: "For the first time central Government has realised that the key to tackling the problem is through local authorities and support from voluntary groups."

He said that the ACF's forte is that it can penetrate the wall of silence and reach the heart of communities susceptible to extremism. Leytonstone Muslim Communtiy Centre teaches young men and women about Islam and leadership skills.

Young Muslim leadership scheme member Shereen Qadir said: "It has given us an opportunity to look at the facts and speak face-to-face with people about the challenges that face our communities.

"Not only that, but it has developed a respect and understanding of other cultures and religions.

"Now I feel I want to use what I've learned to give back to the community."

Swapping Cultures is a programme that uses discussion, music, art and performance to teach pupils about different cultures.

Pupils from Rush Croft School, in Rushcroft Road, Chingford, have taken part in the scheme, which has been praised for empowering young people to challenge racism.

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technomist, walthamstow says...
10:57am Wed 4 Jun 08

While it is good to know that the government is trying to do something about the extremism which exists in the muslim community, it would have so much credibility if they were honest and just admitted that contrary to the assertion "We have not decided to come to Waltham Forest because we feel there is a particular problem with extremism in this area", all the evidence shows that significant numbers of the terrorist plotters of recent years have been living in or had connections with Waltham Forest.

Clyde Loakes I see is also in on the spin and self deception. He says that he should get credit for the work the council is doing. I personally doubt their effort are making a huge difference, but if I am wrong and it is the case that these schemes are effetive, he and his Labour colleagues should be willing to accept the blame for some of their significant failures in this area. He says people will challenge extremism if they have 'self-esteem and confidence'. I ask: What is it about the education he has been providing these young people with hitherto that means they don't have good self esteem and confidence? What is it about their local economy and job prospects that causes young people to feel their chances in life have been blighted and how have the local authorities treated them in terms of access to youth services, education, entertainment, sporting and social facilities? Loakes and his fellow Labour cronies bear a significant amount of the responsibility in their past decisions which have contributed to blighting the cultural life of this borough for young people and making extremists seem less unattractive to alienated young people. He should not just be concerned about young muslims, but all young people, by the way, because if the government is right and its not just about the war in Iraq, the same social forces are in play disaffecting young non-muslims and there could be trouble ahead if the council only reaches out to young people from one section of the community while ignoring the rest.

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David Lichfield, Chingford says...
3:05pm Wed 4 Jun 08

Has anyone tried Googling for the words "Walthamstow" and "terror" ?
You'll find over 16,000 hits. Not such a great reflection on the area.
Can any other London area beat this figure? Perhaps other readers could play this game and post the results here.

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Johnny Hughes, Leyton says...
4:12pm Wed 4 Jun 08

Radical Islam has been allowed to fester in East London. Those in power did nothing for years because they were scared of talking out or because they thought it would damage "multi-culturalism". Yet, all they have done is to alow the creation of ghettos, where radical islam can grow unabated. We need to insist upon integration and shared values. We must insist to radicals that Britain is a secular country, religion is a private matter for an individual.

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JF, walthamstow says...
4:51pm Wed 4 Jun 08

I agree with you, Johnny Hughes, in some respect but Radical Islam has not been the only thing allowed to fester round here. We have a lot of aimless young people in the area who need to find a positive direction in life. The outlets available for the young in our area for personal development have rarely been more limited than they are at present despite the way the young are portrayed in the media, which is partly why we have so many of young people in the area who have found themselves seduced into 'alternative' sub-cultures and unable to distinguish the good from the bad. They have been ripe in such circumstances for exploitation by the older criminals who foster
gang cultures or radical extremists who have engaged some of the local young in a similar way.

The inability of the tiny ruling class to do anything about these developments is not all down to 'multi-culturalism' but it did not help. It seems 'multiculturalism' became an idea adopted as a mantra which turned into an inflexible dogma, implemented by people who were really only fighting for jobs and resources for two groups: the liberal middle classes who found they had nothing in common with the white working class after Thatcherism and the self appointed 'leaders' of ethnic groups who went along with much of this patronising nonsense as a means of gaining access to power for themselves and others in their own emerging middle class.

It was never a project to create a genuinely equal society, and so one can't blame people for rejecting it, though that is no excuse for anyone turning to extreme violent religious groups.

I agree that the current government and their local Council allies have shown inadequate intelligence and insufficient ability to see what has been going on. Its not surprising: they are cut off from ordinary people and speaking a different language.

I suppose they have been blinded by an arrogance that comes from never having to ask yourself if you are wrong. When a ZanuLabour elite has been allowed to carry on year after year with no accountability at all, these things happen.

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Susan, Waltham Forest says...
1:56pm Fri 6 Jun 08

"Ms Blears...denied a suggestion that changing the Government's foreign policy would lessen the threat of extremism."

But the biggest recruiting ground for terrorism is indeed British foreign policy. The invasion of Iraq (one million dead and whole cities like Fallujah laid waste), our fourth British war on Afghanistan, bringing misery and death to its impoverished population, and total support for Israel in its land-grabbing and murderous repression of the Palestinians.

The Australian government is withdrawing all its troops from Iraq in the belief that this will reduce the chance of becoming a terror target.

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Dominic de Vieres, Woodford Wells says...
6:39pm Fri 6 Jun 08

No Susan I'm afraid you are wrong. 9/11 happened before the wars in Iraq or Aghanistan. And prior to that UK Embassies had been threatened in the Middle East and Africa. Indeed the US was attacked a number of years earlier in Africa, killing many civilians. Then our Consulate in Istanbul was bombed. The radical islamist has no real aims. They loosely want an Islamic caliphate stretching across the globe. These are not 'tangible' aims in which to bargain or negotiate with. On Iraq. You forget that Iraq has a democratically elected government. Monitors from middle east countries and those such as Spain were independent observers and all agreed it was fair elections. I must say, that having met a number of Iraqis in this country whilst at University. The first thing they say is that they want the US and UK to stay. Yes there have beeen problems, and they want a timetable for eventual withdrawel. But they recognise they need help at the moment. The recent security situation has also radically transformed. Indeed many are hopeful for the future. Iraqis and Afghanis want to enjoy freedom, democracy, human rights, equality for women etc. The same rights we take for granted. If the US or UK were to leave that would all be threatened by the minority radicals. Iraqi women campaigners would be quashed, as would minority rights. Remember that the vast majority of Iraqis want the freedoms we enjoy. As a progressive modern country we owe it to them to help this young democracy. In this country, Foreign policy cannot be by diktat. Many people also forget that it was the same Blair government that helped Kosovar Albanians in Kosovo against Serbia . The fact is these people would still have radical views no matter what our foreign policy. They dislike our freedoms, our secularity, the rights of gay people, alcohol etc. We should be proud of our society, but also be prepared to defend it against those that would take us back to a by gone age. The radical Islmamists should also realise that we live in a democracy if they don't like the foreign policy, they should stand as MPs and debate it in parliament. Not on the streets of Glasgow or London tube bombings.

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Susan, Waltham Forest says...
1:40pm Sat 7 Jun 08

"9/11 happened before the wars in Iraq or Aghanistan"

Learn some history, Dominic. The RAF was bombing civilians in Iraq back in the 1920s. Afghanistan has been repeatedly invaded by Britain, dating back to the mid-nineteenth century. As Noam Chomsky has pointed out, the shock of 9/11 was that someone finally did to the USA what it has routinely done to others. 9/11 was a response to US foreign policy.

Europe and the USA seek to control the Middle East for its oil, and have no interest whatsoever in democracy or human rights. The elections in Iraq were bogus because they occurred under military occupation, and the Iraqi government is a puppet regime, just as the one in Afghanistan.




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James, Wanstead says...
2:55pm Sat 7 Jun 08

Dominic de Vieres doesn't have much grasp of what's happening in Afghanistan. The Taliban are making a comeback because the population is sick of being bombed by the Americans and British. The so-called Prime Minister is a feeble puppet who doesn't even have authority in Kabul, let alone the country as a whole.

The terrible situation in Gaza gives the lie to the notion that Britain and the USA are interested in democracy. The Palestinians voted democratically for Hamas, to the shock of the West, which much preferred the corrupt Fatah clique. As a result the Palestinians are being punished in the most ferocious way possible. It is hardly surprising that some young radicalized Muslims want to inflict on us what our state inflicts on Muslim societies.

It is worth asking why places like Switzerland don't experience terrorism. The answer is that Switzerland doesn't go around invading other countries and killing civilians.

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Captain Sensible, Leyton says...
5:08pm Sat 7 Jun 08

Why are vulnerable young people being exposed to warmongers like Jacqui Smith and Hazel Blears, who both voted for the invasion and occupation of Iraq?

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Budda Babaji, Walthamstow says...
6:08pm Sat 7 Jun 08

I would like to know when money will be poured into improve education and schooling in our areas. The gang crimes and knifings are on the rise. Who has radicalised these youths? We are most likely to be mugged, stabbed, burgled in our borough than become victim of terrorism. Please set your priorities straight and stop wasting money on war and anti-terrorism efforts and start thinking about living conditions, NHS, gun crimes, rapes and the pensioners.

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Dominic de Vieres, Woodford Wells says...
10:32pm Sat 7 Jun 08

'James' you are kidding yourself mate. I know people in the Embassy out in Kabul. And I can ensure you the Taliban are not wanted by the people. They killed homosexuals, threatened women, banned music. Basically hated fun and freedom. You may have the comfort of typing on a PC in England in a complete freedom, but think about the genuine people of Afghanistan. They want freedom, democracy and safety. We owe it to them to help them. The taliban are an evil regime that is not supported by the majority of the Aghani people. They are heroin traffickers and terrorist ostrercised by the many, but supported by wealthy radical Islamists in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

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Margaret de Vieres, Woodford Wells says...
10:41pm Sat 7 Jun 08

"Learn some history, Dominic. The RAF was bombing civilians in Iraq back in the 1920s". WRONG What does that have to do with today?! In ther interim, we had something called a "mass killer" an dictator who gassed his own people. . "Afghanistan has been repeatedly invaded by Britain, dating back to the mid-nineteenth century". AGAIN WRONG. What does that have to do today and the evil taliban? I have met Iraqi and Aghanis. I can ensure you Aghan women especially do not want the taliban and are **** right thankful the UK and US are over there.

And for the record, the oil from Iraq is not pumping much. It would need to sell oil to the UK and US for virtually nothing for the next tens years to cover the cost we have spent trying to help the Iraqi people and created democracy for the people of that country. Genuine Iraqis want stability, freedom and democracy. The UK owes that right to others. "The elections in Iraq were bogus because they occurred under military occupation". Erm, wrong. Iraq is now a UN sponsored mission. The government asked the US and UK to help with the security situation until Iraqi troops are trained up and able to deal with minority extremists sponsored by Iran and Syria. Some of the people above may want us to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan now because they don't want it to be a success. They want to have the luxury of saying "told you so". But, that is no good to the people of those troubled countries. The UK and US do not want to stay in those countries. They cost our young soldiers lives, they are horrible places to be stationed and cost us billions. The fact is we owe it to fellow human beings to have the right of a future. The minority extremists such as the Taliban want some bizarre version of political Islam that would bring those countries back to the middle ages and boss women. Speak to Iraqis and Aghanis, they support the UK and US helping them now. Of course, they want the coalition to pull out soon. Of course, they are proud people. But, they know they need help at the moment. Rich, middle class, safe web bloggers above need to think before they type so easily and above all in safety.

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Tony Ayres, Clayhall says...
10:44pm Sat 7 Jun 08

Dominic de Vieres wrote:
No Susan I'm afraid you are wrong. 9/11 happened before the wars in Iraq or Aghanistan. And prior to that UK Embassies had been threatened in the Middle East and Africa. Indeed the US was attacked a number of years earlier in Africa, killing many civilians. Then our Consulate in Istanbul was bombed. The radical islamist has no real aims. They loosely want an Islamic caliphate stretching across the globe. These are not 'tangible' aims in which to bargain or negotiate with. On Iraq. You forget that Iraq has a democratically elected government. Monitors from middle east countries and those such as Spain were independent observers and all agreed it was fair elections. I must say, that having met a number of Iraqis in this country whilst at University. The first thing they say is that they want the US and UK to stay. Yes there have beeen problems, and they want a timetable for eventual withdrawel. But they recognise they need help at the moment. The recent security situation has also radically transformed. Indeed many are hopeful for the future. Iraqis and Afghanis want to enjoy freedom, democracy, human rights, equality for women etc. The same rights we take for granted. If the US or UK were to leave that would all be threatened by the minority radicals. Iraqi women campaigners would be quashed, as would minority rights. Remember that the vast majority of Iraqis want the freedoms we enjoy. As a progressive modern country we owe it to them to help this young democracy. In this country, Foreign policy cannot be by diktat. Many people also forget that it was the same Blair government that helped Kosovar Albanians in Kosovo against Serbia . The fact is these people would still have radical views no matter what our foreign policy. They dislike our freedoms, our secularity, the rights of gay people, alcohol etc. We should be proud of our society, but also be prepared to defend it against those that would take us back to a by gone age. The radical Islmamists should also realise that we live in a democracy if they don't like the foreign policy, they should stand as MPs and debate it in parliament. Not on the streets of Glasgow or London tube bombings.
Well said, you have covered a lot of stuff there. There are many people who hope that Iraqi and Afghanistani people have the chance of a future. The terrorist Al Qaeda and Taliban want a dictatorship that benefits them and not the people. I wish them luck and hope our soldiers and diplomats can help.

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Denis Maloney, Loughton says...
10:49pm Sat 7 Jun 08

Radical Islamists don't have a devine right to say what UK foreign policy should be. They can't dictate UK government policy. If they don't like it, they can go back to there country of origin. Or, stand for election. In twenty years, Iraq will be thankful that the UK stepped in to help them. They will be a fully functioning democracy. Don't forget the radicals and extremists don't want this as there policies will be shown up to be the weak and devisive cons that they are. The radical islamists are similar to the nazi party but at the other end of the spectrum.

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Dawn Travvers, Woodford Green says...
11:47pm Sat 7 Jun 08

Al Qaeda wants an end to secularism. They hate gay people, hate equality for women and the very idea of a multi-cultural society. I thank fcuk that I live in the UK. A country where everyone can be who they want to be. Apologists for Al Qaeda or the taliban should live under sharia law or the taliban and then see how much they like it.

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James, Wanstead says...
8:37am Sun 8 Jun 08

That's right, Iraq is such a success that ten per cent of the population have fled the hell that Britain and the USA have created there. And that ten per cent are the affluent middle classes - doctors, professionals etc - who can afford it. If you want to know what's really happening in Iraq read the reports of Patrick Cockburn in The Independent, not the cosy fantasies of people who live in a nice part of Essex.

It's interesting how Britain's long history of bringing misery to the Middle East is simply blanked out by some people. In Iraq Britain colluded with the USA to overthrow the first democratic government government, which dared to nationalise Iraqi oil for Iraqis. Britain and the USA enthusiastically supported Saddam Hussein, even supplying him with the gas used to poison the Kurds. Then, when he was of no further use, they invented non-existent weapons of mass destruction as a thin excuse to invade.

As for that tosh about bringing peace and freedom to Afghanistan. Ironically the best time Afghani women had was under the Communists, who the US helped overthrow by giving arms to allies like... Osama bin Laden.

What we get from all these insane imperialist ventures is one thing: blowback.

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Susan, Waltham Forest says...
9:50am Sun 8 Jun 08

Margaret de Vieres thinks it is of no relevance that Britain has a long history of violently interfering in Iraq and Afghanistan. What gave us the moral right to send armies to faraway regions of the world to overthrow their governments and repress their people? The idea that we do it for high-minded reasons is grotesque. The people of Iraq and Afghanistan deserve to work out their own destinies, without foreign occupation.

Our latest war on Afghanistan is a failure, just as our previous ones ended in disaster (the ones we prefer to forget). If the Soviets couldn't hold Afghanistan, with a vastly greater occupying force, don't expect 3,000 British troops to do it. The troops themselves know perectly well that the folks back home are either competely indifferent to what is happening in Afghanistan, or don't support the war.

Iraq was invaded on spurious grounds and I am one of the two million people proud to have marched against it. The occupation has resulted in massive devastation and loss of life and Iraqis are perfectly entitled to resist the occupying forces, just as the French resistance were justified in fighting back against the German occupiers.

As for blather about the United Nations. This organisation is simply the voice of the USA and the most powerful nations on earth, none of which are motivated by anything other than their own material interests.

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Dominick de Vieres, Woodford Wells says...
1:41pm Sun 8 Jun 08

'Susan' we ARE NOT COLONISING IRAQ OR AGHANISTAN. Indeed we take in many asylum seekers and immigrants from these countries, including many Muslim countries. We provide them with housing, benefits etc. We are in Iraq and Afghanistan because for far too long the world neglected those states. The extremists moved in. The taliban are despised by most Afghanis. Indeed many are over the moon they can enjoy the things we take for granted. E.g. Afghanistan Idol. Where young people can sing and be themselves. In the taliban Aghanistan they would have been beheaded. 'Susan' needs to think about that. The UK and US are working hard to help the everyday citizen. They want progress. So we pull out is your answer? Then, the extremists move in, violence continues. Human rights, minority rights, women rights etc are all pushed aside? That's a great option Susan, you should be ashamed of yourself.

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Murshed Hussein, Leytonstone says...
1:46pm Sun 8 Jun 08

I am Muslim. Whilst I have concerns over some aspects of foreign policy, I know from speaking to brothers and sisters that improvements are being made. For me, it comes down to three things, why I support the UK policy. - The worlds never again want to see Afghanistan become the haven for terrorists that proved so destructive in the past. -For Afghanistan and the worlds
we want to see a stable country playing a constructive role in an important region that impacts directly on the worlds security
- we have a moral obligation to help Afghanistan peoples rebuild itself as a nation after decades of damaging conflict. I am glad of the work the UK is doing, the soliders and the billions UK have pumped in. Westerners may take freedom for granted, but I do not. There is a very real struggle happening. Between those who want freedom / democracy and those who want extremist Islam taliban.

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Susan, Waltham Forest says...
2:41pm Sun 8 Jun 08

"We are in Iraq and Afghanistan because for far too long the world neglected those states."

On the contrary, we have been interfering in Iraq for ninety years, and in Afghanistan for 150 years. Iraq is indeed being colonized, which is why the Americans are building a series of massive permanent military bases there. As far as the USA is concerned, the whole of the Middle East is there to be pillaged for the American consumer.

British interference in Afghanistan has reduced that country to one of the most impoverished and miserable places on earth. The Americans were quite happy to regard the Taliban as allies when it suited them. As journalists out there now report, things are so bad under the Americans and British that the Taliban are regaining popular support.


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Manvinder Sandhu, Manor Park says...
10:26pm Sun 8 Jun 08

It comes to something when Islamists groom a mentally ill young man in Bristol to be a suicide bomber. Every week the police and security services are monitoring hundreds if not thousands of radicals. Any international, government or private scheme is welcome if it counters the unprecedented worldwide threat we face from muslim fanatics.

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James, Wanstead says...
7:44am Mon 9 Jun 08

The best scheme would be to withdraw British troops from Afghanistan and Iraq, and stop supplying the Israelis with the technology used to fire missiles into civilian areas. Some young Muslims are fired up by the sights you can see on the internet but not on BBC News. State terror inspires DIY terror and three of the great rogue states in the world today are the USA, Britain and Israel.

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Captain Sensible, Leyton says...
8:21am Mon 9 Jun 08

It comes to something when Britain invades a soveriegn country, kills one million of its inhabitants, destroys its infrastructure, levels whole cities to the ground, and thinks this won't have any consequences.

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Sceptic, E17 says...
9:34am Mon 9 Jun 08

Interesting that names like Murshed and Manvinder speak up against religious fanaticism, whereas people brought up in a comfortable secular democracy make every excuse for something they've never experienced!
Personally I think the invasion of Iraq was a crime. But it didn't cause the woman-hating, homophobic violence of the 1980s Taliban. And it didn't cause the anti-Westernism that we now know flourished among islmaists in 1990s Britain.

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Captain Sensible, Leyton says...
1:21pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Interesting that some people make every excuse for something hey've never experienced, i.e. the terror rained on Muslim civilians in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Interesting that our TV never shows what cluster bombs do to children. Interesting that we have still not seen all the film taken in Abu Ghraib. Interesting that we subsidize Israel with its Jews-only roads and weekly killing of Palestinian children.
The Israeli government incidentally has a long history of assassinating secular Palestinians, in order to promote Islamic fundamentalism. The West has never minded woman-hating homophobes if they are prepared to be our clients. That's why our allies include Saudi Arabia (strange how you never hear about the government run beheadings there on the British media, isn't it?)

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Murshed Hussein, Leytonstone says...
1:24pm Mon 9 Jun 08

I am against it, because I lived under a similar system! People in this country who live decent lives and in peace above have the cheek to criticise the help we need in Afghanistan and Iraq. People in this countries want freedom, women want to live safety, people want to listen to music, people want to laugh or joak. All of those things are looked down upon by religious fanatics such as taliban. They are not supported by the people. They seize power when there is a power vacuum and when the international community gives up on them. Iraq and Aghanistan are not perfect. But, what they are fragile young democracys. They are trying to build something that the UK has had hundreds of years to draft - a safe democracy. Why do people living in the comfort of England deny that right to others? I'd liked to see them live under taliban and then see how quick they ask for US or UK help.

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Sam Mead, Stoke Newington says...
1:31pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Forget all this apologists for Radical extremism. The fact is, it is wrong, it is abhorrent. People who don't like foreign policy should debate it or run for election. Foreign Policy is no excuse for suicide bombs on the London tube, glasgow attacks, bristol, plymouth etc. It is an evil group that does indeed use a mentally disabled person. Why don't the people above criticise that. It is all too easy to criticse the UK and US. But, at least you can criticise. We live in a democracy and have free media. Things come out, including any abuses. This does not happen in Iran, Syria, Saudi etc. There abuses are unreported and God knows what happens there. I agree, it is easy for those who have only ever lived in a free society to criticise it. There are millions around the globe that can only dream of that sort of freedom.

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Captain Sensible, Leyton says...
1:34pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Afghanistan and Iraq are not fragile democracies but countries under occupation by two major imperialist states with long histories of interfering in other countries. Their governments are puppet regimes. The US does not want democracy in Iraq for the simple reason that the majority ethnic group is pro-Iranian.

Britain's democracy developed out of struggles in Brtish society. It was not imposed by foreign occupiers. The USA has invaded over 100 countries in the past century, and has a long track record of overthrowing democratic governments.

Britain and the USA invent a spurious concern for women's rights and democracy when it suits them, but you have to be grossly ignorant of history and very gullible to believe in it. Egypt is a vicious military dictatorship subsidized and supported by the West. The Egyptian people are desperate for democracy but they are not allowed it because radical Muslims would win.

It is up to the people of Irq and Afghanistan to work out their own destiny. The Afghani resistance threw out the British, then the Russians, and now they will throw out the British once again. You can't do that without popular support, no matter how unpalatable this may be to people living cosy lives in Greater London.

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Hanan Abdi, Woodford Green says...
1:35pm Mon 9 Jun 08

'Captain sensible' more like Captain Rubbish. You Sir, are fighting the wrong fight. Go and live in Iran or under the taleban and see how you get on mate. Every week we are hearing about new attacks or new radical cells found in the UK. These radicals Islamists are planning suicide bombings or other horrific attacks on the civilian populus in the UK. They care only about killing for there horrible aspirations.

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Paula Warren, Whalthamstow says...
1:41pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Captain Sensible lives in the comfort of a house or flat in London and feels so comfortable he can dictate what the Iraq and Aghan people want. Forget that the taliban or al qaeda would kill homosexuals, victimise women, attack other minorities, ban music aswell as being beaten for falling out line. There is no great conspiracy mate. The UK and US are spending billions of our tax on helping those countries. We've spent more than we'd ever get back in oil. We have lost more UK troops too, you cant put a price on that. The truth is we are helping create a democracy, we are funding training courses for there military. We want them to have a safe country. But, also we not want other failed states. We never again want to allow a state to become lawless and under the horrific taliban or al qaeda regime. The same regime that launched an unprovoked attack on innocent civilians on 9/11 killing thousands. I'm absolutely appalled that 'captain UNsensible' is an apologist for that. But, he should realise he wouldn't be able to criticise in Saudi or Yemen.

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James, Wanstead says...
1:44pm Mon 9 Jun 08

I think some of the apologists for British imperialism have rather missed the point. I don't think anyone here is condoning Islamic extremism, simply trying to understand it. If you carry out barbaic atrocities against Muslims in places like Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan (where British and American fighters have killed more civilians than the Talban) you should not be too surprised if some young Muslims feel like inflicting on us what we inflict on them. Personally I don't wish to be blown up by a nutter with a bag full of homemade explosive. Nor do I feel civilians should be held responsible for what governments do. But the fact remains that Britain is causing terrible suffering around the world and the best way to stop retaliation is to stop the bombing and killing, pull the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and stop supporting Israel. And let us not forget that when Hamas won democratic elections the West promptly isolated Gaza and turned it into a gigantic prison camp under daily assault by Apache helicopters and mssile carrying drones.

The Spanish and Australian people have learned a lesson and voted for politicians who pulled the troops out and stopped supporting Bush. Unfortunately all we have is three parties all committed to war.

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Margaret Finch, Snaresbrook says...
1:45pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Johnny Hughes wrote:
Radical Islam has been allowed to fester in East London. Those in power did nothing for years because they were scared of talking out or because they thought it would damage \"multi-culturalism\". Yet, all they have done is to alow the creation of ghettos, where radical islam can grow unabated. We need to insist upon integration and shared values. We must insist to radicals that Britain is a secular country, religion is a private matter for an individual.
True, well said Mr Hughes. We can no longer allow ghettos to become the norm. Groups must integrate and learn the secular / free values we take so dear. Religion is a matter for the individual to study in private.

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Stephen Armitage, Bethnal Green says...
1:50pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Yes James, but any attacks on civilians by the US or UK were by accident. Although there were some cases of soldiers abusing civlians - this was wrong and they were punished by the US or UK. It shows you we don't condone it. But, the key difference is that Al Qaeda and the taliban targetted civilians. They are different to the IRA. They have no tangible wish. They loosely want an Islmic caliphate across the middle east and europe. How do you bargain with that? They want an end to secularism. People need to realise that when the criticise our involvement in Iraq or Afghanistan they play into the hands of radical groups that want much more than soldiers to pull out. They are vile, and are similar to the National Front or Nazi party. As a homosexuals I am disgusted people back these radicals. I would be killed in Iran just for being gay.

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Mary LeDeouf, Loughton says...
1:54pm Mon 9 Jun 08

The Spanish did a stupid thing. They gave the radical an upper hand. The socialist government showed they could change there mind because they were bombed in Madrid. That means future Islamic terrorists will think they can sway there government. This can never happen. I am thankful the UK is stronger and has the courage to help the genuine people out there who want progress and freedom. Too many western liberals or socialists listen to the minority radicals. Which is bizarre seeing as they stand for completetly different things. And in all probability under a radical islam government the socialists would be rounded up and shot for being secular or not into religion.

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James, Wanstead says...
1:57pm Mon 9 Jun 08

That's right Stephen. The US killed five mllion Vietnamese but it was all just an "accident".

Don't you people read reports from journalists who have served with troops in the front line? They all describe how trigger-happy the troops are. It is precisely because of the scale of the killing of civilians by US and British troops that the Taliban are making a comeback. You might not like it but that is the reality.

Come back in 20 years. If you think Afghanistan will be a functioning democracy, where women and gays are equal under the law, you are living in cloud-cuckoo land. You should read a few books about the history of Afghanistan before you think you can turn the country into a version of East London and Essex.

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Carly Hoare, Mile End says...
1:59pm Mon 9 Jun 08

I'm a student studying politics and have read this blog with suprise!! The apologists for Al Qaeda or the talliban are ridiculous! Why do they target countries such as United Arab Emirates then? Who are fellow Muslims and are not involved in any wars. It is because they dislike some of the secular values the UAE allows or that it is modern and does not want a medieval form of islam that the talleban want. Apologists need to wake up and smell the coffee.

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Captain Sensible, Leyton says...
2:03pm Mon 9 Jun 08

No, Paula, it's not me who is dictating what happens in Iraq and Afghanistan but Britain and the USA, using bombs and bullets and a puppet prime minister who everyone knows can't even leave his fortress in Kabul without a massive armed escort. I just want to leave Iraq and Afghanistan to work out their own destinies. Why are we in Iraq anyway? Saddam Hussein has gone, and there is a glorious democracy (apparently), so why does the grateful population need tens of thousands of American and British troops?

It's the oil.

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stephen armitage, bethnal green says...
2:03pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Yes - James, but we have a free media. Journalists are invited in to go with US and UK soldiers. We can see what goes on. God knows what horrors happen in Iran, Saudi, Yemen etc. I thank God we have western secularism. I have met an Iraqi at college, she is grateful to tony blair and the UK. It is easy to sit and type how the war was wrong. But, most residents there want the UK to help and are thankful for all the aid. In 15-20 years I am sure that country will be a fine country. The likes of Iran or Syria don't want that to happen as there sham governments will be shown up for the unelected diktats that they are.

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stephen armitage, Bethnal Green says...
2:06pm Mon 9 Jun 08

We allowed Afghanistan to become a failed state. It needed help and we allowed rich extremists from Saudi Arabia to take it over. They used it as a terror camp. They routinely beat women, forced women to wear the full burkha, killed gays, banned music etc. Then the failed state attacked the US on 9/11 and killed thousands of civilians. Never again can the world sit by and allow a state to become failed and ruled by extremist fanatics. I

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James, Wanstead says...
2:09pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Ah, that's a bit of a giveaway Stephen, mentioning Syria and Iran like that. Obviously we will have to invade them next - for the very highest motives, of course.

It's rubbish to suggest that most Iraqis want the occupation to continue.



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Stephen Armitage, Bethnal Green says...
2:09pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Because captain sensible - Iran and Syria are funding extremists in Iraq to cause trouble. They want to exert there influence for unscrupulous purposes. People in Iraq deserve our help until their democratically elected government says otherwise. As for oil, we have spent more billions of tax payers money on Iraq than we are liable to get back in terms of oils. Oil production is still painfully low. But Iraq needs oil, it should be a rich country as Saudi and others are. It's people shouldn't have to go hungry or be the victimes of extremist road side bombs. It isn't the UK or US who doing the killing, it is Iran and Syrian sponsored extremist groups. I am hopeful though, it is good to read other people on this site share my opinion.

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Murshed Hussein, Leytonstone says...
2:12pm Mon 9 Jun 08

And James you have spoken to many Iraqis in the comfort of leafy Wanstead? It is very easy for those who are used to freedom to criticise it. Most people can only dream of it and are thankful for help.

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Captain Sensible, Leyton says...
2:14pm Mon 9 Jun 08

No, Paula, it is not me who is trying to dictate what the people of Iraq and Afghanistan want, but the governments of Britain and the USA, which have a long record of overthrowing genuinely democratic governments (such as the one in Iraq which had the temerity to nationalise the oil industry). I believe the people of Iraq and Afghanistan should be left alone to work out their own destinies.

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James, Wanstead says...
2:31pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Why bother with opinion polls, Murshed? You obviously are in tune with what the Iraqi people want.

I remember at the Labour Party conference in 2003 an Iraqi woman was introduced on the platform and sobbed with gratitude to Tony Blair for liberating her country. It subsequently turned out that she had spent the last ten years living in Surrey and was married to a member of the current puppet regime, which was subsequently replaced by the Americans. On behalf of a grateful nation, obviously. In fact with the occupation being so popular it's a bit of a puzzle that the most powerful army in the world has been bogged down there for five years.

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John O'Connor, Woodford says...
2:56pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Over 90% of the heroin on our streets comes from Afghanistan. Opium production is the biggest export of that country. The tablian control this, they want opium exported, in there words they "don't care if Christian countries die on heroin overdoses". Our forces are doing a sterling job in a very difficult terrain. They are working with there Afghan army counterparts to destroy opium fields and get farmers on a better crop. Pakistani and Afghani taliban fighters are extremists. Our forces work with the Aghanistan national elected government and Pakistani government to fight the taliban threat. And we have done a great amount of work. There forces are sevely depleted, they can only operate out of far flung mountains. We have a duty to help the people of Aghanistan have a decent future. I am proud that our army, one of the best in the world is helping to achieve stability and freedom for fellow human beings. In the 30s, comments like those above would have been used by the appeasers when talking about Adolf Hitler. If it was up to them, Britain would have surrended to the Nazis. The threat faced to the world today from Islamic radicalisation is very real, and much more serious than the Nazis. Al Qaeda is a loose collection of terrorist groups, many have never met Al Qaeda cells, they learn a lot from the internet and become radicalised. The war in Afghanistan is important in the long term goal of defeating al qaeda and keeping the UK safe. Pakistani intelligence is important to UK security and has helped prevent a number of attacks here. The UK are winning hearts and minds amongst the Afghani populus. Hence why the Muslim state of UAE is in Afghanistan along with NATO forces and helps distribute aid and moderate Islamic holy books.

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stephen armitage, Bethnal Green says...
3:09pm Mon 9 Jun 08

In 1999, the UK went to war with Serbia (a Christian country) to help protect Kosovo-Albanians (a predominantly Muslim people). There was no oil in Kosovo. Many of the apologists for the taleban seem to forget that. People should be very careful what they type, the UK is facing growing radicalisation. People have to be mature and sensitive in their comments, vulnerable people reading this site could be wound up.

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Alan Griffiths, Forest Gate, London says...
6:48pm Mon 9 Jun 08

I've just posted a link to "Harry's Place", more for the news report than the discussion!

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Captain Sensible, Leyton says...
7:49pm Mon 9 Jun 08

'Harry's Place' is a notorious right-wing blog packed with apologists for imperialism.

Stephen, I hardly think people reading this comments thread are going to be inspired to commit terrorism. What fires up young Muslim radicals is seeing what Western munitions do to Muslim civilians.

Yugoslavia was carved up for the benefit of NATO and western capitalism.

And production of opium has rocketed since Britain and the US occupied Afghanistan. Destroying the crop alienates farmers who have no other means of making a living and pushes them into the hands of the Taliban.

Still, few people commenting here are bothered by trifles like history and fact. I expect you'll be back to ell us that Iran has nukes and excusing yet another ferocious western imperialist assault on a country which has never invaded anyone.

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Sceptic, E17 says...
8:49pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Murshed Hussein wrote:
I am against it, because I lived under a similar system! People in this country who live decent lives and in peace above have the cheek to criticise the help we need in Afghanistan and Iraq. People in this countries want freedom, women want to live safety, people want to listen to music, people want to laugh or joak. All of those things are looked down upon by religious fanatics such as taliban. They are not supported by the people. They seize power when there is a power vacuum and when the international community gives up on them. Iraq and Aghanistan are not perfect. But, what they are fragile young democracys. They are trying to build something that the UK has had hundreds of years to draft - a safe democracy. Why do people living in the comfort of England deny that right to others? I'd liked to see them live under taliban and then see how quick they ask for US or UK help.
A good question, Murshed. But I don't think it will be answered by those people who praise islamic fundamentalism while staying a safe distance away from it!

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Alan Griffiths, Forest Gate, London says...
10:39pm Mon 9 Jun 08

Captain Sensible, I made my post to "Harry's Place", for the same reason as my earlier ones. I demanded explainations and evidence from people claiming that Tariq Ramadan and Hanif Qadir are sectarain fringe elements linked to the Muslimm Brotherhood.

As for Imperialism, most of the British Empire was over before I was born. But they are still making those comedy films featuring a character called James Bond.

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Larry Scott, Woodford Green says...
11:31pm Mon 9 Jun 08

stephen armitage wrote:
In 1999, the UK went to war with Serbia (a Christian country) to help protect Kosovo-Albanians (a predominantly Muslim people). There was no oil in Kosovo. Many of the apologists for the taleban seem to forget that. People should be very careful what they type, the UK is facing growing radicalisation. People have to be mature and sensitive in their comments, vulnerable people reading this site could be wound up.
Exactly. Funny how apologists for radicals forget this when talking about "evil" British foreign policy.

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Captain Sensible, Leyton says...
9:15am Tue 10 Jun 08

I suggest all you armchair warriors for freedom join the Territorial Army. They are desperate for recruits.

You could also try reading the comments by bereaved parents in today's national papers, who feel the whole Afghanistan mission is pointless, that the mission lacks any coherent military focus, and that if half a million Russian troops with fleets of helicopters couldn't hold down the country, a few thousand British squaddies won't. And of course women had equal rights under the secular communist regime, which was overthrown by Islamic fundamentalism armed by the west. Osama bin Laden's AK-47 arrived courtesy of the Americans.

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Gordon Andrews, Theydon Bois says...
12:31pm Tue 10 Jun 08

Captain Sensible - you are an armchair apologist for the evil al qaeda or the Taleban. You sit comfortably by at your PC in England, where you are safe (because of secularism and democracy). Yet you don't want the same values or safety to go to Iraq or Afghanistan. How very brave of you. Of course war is painful and I can't imagine the pain and suffering that families go through when there brave sons or daughters die. But, what of the thousands that die every year from heroin (imported from Afghan opiates), how many died on 9/11 etc. The solders out there are fighting for something. Something my grand father fought in WW2, an evil regime (Nazism)that like the taliban cares little for people just there own sick agendas. This is completly different from Russia's episode in the 80s. For a start it is a NATO led mission, it also includes a contingent from the Islamic United Arab Emirates. NATO are fighting, not for a colony or to annexe the country. We want a stable, self governing country that poses us no threat but also values the rights of it's citizens. A country that can be self suficient, prosperous and not a failed state where rich Saudi extremists can use it as a playground for there terrorist activities against the world. Afghanis deserve the same right as you or I, they are fellow human beings. If we pull out of Aghanistan early, that fragile democracy will come under threat from the taleban insurgents who are hidden in the Pakistani mountains. There will be a power vaccum and the men with the guns will beat the people as they did in the 90s. I am glad the UK government will not cut and run. They will stay and help a proud people rebuild what should be a propserous and thriving Islamic country. I am glad so many people on this site agree with me.

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Paul, Walthamstow says...
8:49am Wed 11 Jun 08

Er, Gordon. Study some history! Let's see where we are in 10-20 years time.
I don't think any of us here support the Taleban...unlike the US who funded them originally and led us into the current situation.

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Nigel Deary, Buckhurst Hill says...
11:57am Wed 11 Jun 08

You mean the same US who funded Kosovo Albanian Muslims in there struggle against Serbian Christians? Get your facts right Paul and present a balanced opinion. This country is facing radicalism. For the first time in our history we are facing suicide bombers who want to kill lots of people. This is very different from the IRA who phoned up to warn and also pick publiciity targets rather than to kill huge numbers. The chief of the Met Police has stated that they are currently investigating 30 plots, over 200 groups, including over 3,000 potential suspects.

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