WALTHAM FOREST: Extremists march through borough (From East London and West Essex Guardian Series)

On the obligation to obey those in authority as long as it is not a wrong action, and the prohibition against obeying them in an act of rebellion against Allah

Allah Almighty says, "O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those in command among you." (W4:58; H4:59)

this clearly shows that obey the government of the land in which you live in as long as it doesnt force you to disobey allah or go against his orders and as far as i know, there are no rules in the constitution or anywhere which forces a muslim to do haram stuff.
btw im a muslim and i know exactly what im talking about.
these extremists are an embarrassment for the muslim community.

A medieval law for medieval minds.

Well said, realist12, though while these people are an embarrassment for the Muslim community they hardly constitute a threat to democracy, or community cohesion, or anything much else. In fact, they serve to remind those of us who have become a bit complacent about our core values to revisit them and think more about them. Ironically, these people who advocate an end to democracy probably do more to advance its cause than those whom we elect to (allegedly) represent us. We need to take democracy into our own hands and protect it wherever it comes under threat. As for the pathetic rump of rightwing saddos who turned out to 'oppose' this march, the flower of English man(and woman)hood they were not. Frankly, these two groups of deluded fanatics deserve each other, I just wish they'd slog it out amongst themselves and leave the rest of us out of it! Peaceful Ramadan, by the way, and Eid Mubarak when it comes.

But realist12 has not presented any case in favour of democracy, only in favour of obeying the government.

We do not have democracy in Britain but we have to obey those with the power and office. Mostly this is indirectly or directly from unelected unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels. Sometimes it is the unaccountable parliament at Westminster.

The Muslims are wrong in my view; what we need is much more democracy not authoritarian government by religious men (no women!).

I attended a march in central London 10 years ago when a hundred times as many people took part, but we received no publicity; the reason? We were campaigning for an independent, democratic Britain.

Bilingual Muslims children have a right, as much as any other faith group, to be taught their culture, languages and faith alongside a mainstream curriculum. More faith schools will be opened under sweeping reforms of the education system in England. There is a dire need for the growth of state funded Muslim schools to meet the growing needs and demands of the Muslim parents and children. Now the time has come that parents and community should take over the running of their local schools. Parent-run schools will give the diversity, the choice and the competition that the wealthy have in the private sector. Parents can perform a better job than the Local Authority because parents have a genuine vested interest. The Local Authority simply cannot be trusted.

The British Government is planning to make it easier to schools to “opt out” from the Local Authorities. Muslim children in state schools feel isolated and confused about who they are. This can cause dissatisfaction and lead them into criminality, and the lack of a true understanding of Islam can ultimately make them more susceptible to the teachings of fundamentalists like Christians during the middle ages and Jews in recent times in Palestine. Fundamentalism is nothing to do with Islam and Muslim; you are either a Muslim or a non-Muslim.

There are hundreds of state primary and secondary schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. In my opinion all such schools may be opted out to become Muslim Academies. This mean the Muslim children will get a decent education. Muslim schools turned out balanced citizens, more tolerant of others and less likely to succumb to criminality or extremism. Muslim schools give young people confidence in who they are and an understanding of Islam’s teaching of tolerance and respect which prepares them for a positive and fulfilling role in society. Muslim schools are attractive to Muslim parents because they have better discipline and teaching Islamic values. Children like discipline, structure and boundaries. Bilingual Muslim children need Bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods, who understand their needs and demands.

None of the British Muslims convicted following the riots in Bradford and Oldham in 2001 or any of those linked to the London bombings had been to Islamic schools. An American Think Tank studied the educational back ground of 300 Jihadists; none of them were educated in Pakistani Madrasas. They were all Western educated by non-Muslim teachers. Bilingual Muslim children need bilingual Muslim teachers as role models. A Cambridge University study found that single-sex classes could make a big difference for boys. They perform better in single-sex classes. The research is promising because male students in the study saw noticeable gains in the grades. The study confirms the Islamic notion that academic achievement is better in single-sex classes.
Iftikhar Ahmad
http://www.londonsch
oolofislamics.org.uk

With reference to the MAC extremists, they were supported by a large amount of local Muslim youth that were out looking to cause trouble with the English Citizens at the Goose that were infuriated that these Extremists were even allowed to march with their anti social banners and Islamic 'flags of war'
When you view the video released by Choudary and his thiugs concerning the 'emirate' he openly calls for armed insurrection, threatening Citizens to comply by using street vigilante gangs and refusing to obey the law of the land. Why are they not locked up for inciting hatred and religious oppression against all non Muslim faiths? It's comical even saying they are going to prosecute the bill posters when they were parading openly in front of the local police and were not even arrested. If a BNP or right wing activist had been photographed by the press placing such vile literature on public places they would of been dealt with by now. Seems local government appeasing the Muslim vote is going to let these thugs and degenerates get away with it. And as for religious hatred laws being bought against people opposing Islamic Sharia law, that too is ridiculous as Sharia is a political ideology based on medieval brutal practices and anyone who objects to this is within their rights to do so as an English citizen and in accordance with our bill of rights and the Magna Carta, which has never been superseded. While Extremists like this are allowed to flaunt our laws, then expect the growing number of English patriots to start getting out on the streets in defiance of tyranny and demanding our government act against these idiots before the civil unrest becomes of epic proportion and integration is replaced by subjugation

mr ifthikar ahmad. IM 19 and have been educated by the `non muslim` teachers in a `non muslim` society and allhudulillah i turned out to be a much better person then the childern who went to islamic madrasas in leyton n walthamstow.
first of all you say `muslim academies student turn out to be balanced citizens. your wrong and let me tell u y. i have mates from noor ul salam and other madrasas and let me tell u my personal experience. they are far more criminal then my fellow muslim mates who have been brought up in non Islamic schools. the kind of things they do are so horrible that you cannot even imagine. you cannot contest this point because i am the witness of their actions. i have seen all of that personally. you parents need to stop putting ur responsibility on the schools because to a child what a parent says has more value then what a Muslim cleric says.
Muslim acedemies will continue to fail when the parents themselves dont teach their kids their mother tounge and their religion and if they did teach them that then there wouldnt be a need of a islamic school becuase then they would already know whats wrong and whats right. primary socialisation (parents teaching childern themselves) is far more stronger and longer lasting then secondary socialization (the school and socity teaching childern).
its the typical asian parent thinking. why should i teach my childerin about islam. schools should do it.
i agree with the single sex argument.
and please do not say no ur wrong because my experience is more up to date, more vast and more in depth when it comes down to comparing muslim teenagers raised in a non muslim school by non muslim teachers and muslim teenagers raised in a mosque by muslim clerics

I think you demonstrate wisdom beyond your 19 years, realist12. I share your view that Iftikhar_Ahmad's opinions on education are dangerously divisive in a multi-cultural society. We need closer integration not further separatism (leaving aside the single sex argument, on which I'm not sure I agree with you, although I do see your point). As to the English education system, I'm glad you feel you derived benefit from it - I could only wish that they'd taught you to spell and punctuate better. Maybe it's all this texting you youngsters do these days!

With alcohol, gambling, music and smoking prohibited how does Anjy Chudry suggest the people of Walthamstow should spend their spare time? Why live in Walthamtow anyway? There are many more pleasant and fun places to reside!

It's always Anjem Choudary and his small following responsible for the majority of these provocative acts, I think he loves the media attention! If the media simply ignored them and the local people acted like they weren't there as they walked past they'd soon disappear and hopefully go on and make better use of their time by finding productive jobs to do that contribute to the land that houses them. LOL many of the muslims I know wouldn't want Shariah law considering what they get up to!

I wholeheartedly agree with realist19 about his comments.
We need more integration. Kids who grow up and are educated together have a better understanding of each other. I would do away with all religious schools.

Pakistani Muslims need to learn from their fellow Asians in the Indian community, who by comparison have kept their identity, but integrated well and are the highest academic achievers in this country.

Anjum Chowdhury is a joke. I'm not usually a big fan of the Daily Mail, but their expose (with pictures) of him swilling drink, smoking weed and womanising, was hilarious. I think that he is the hypocrite!

just shows what a joke this country is becoming and how we let these ppl take the p*** at the end of the day you are living in ENGLAND you chose to live here if you don't like the life, the law, the culture etc bugger off

The MAC group may not represent other Muslims but they sure have a better understanding of the Koran and the type of man Mohammed really was (he certainly was not an Arab Jesus).

“Extremists marching” is only one side of the story of what happened in our borough on Saturday. Waltham Forest Anti-Cuts Union (WFACU) and other local groups were out in force in Walthamstow town square in a show of strength and unity against cuts but also against attempts to divide our movement. Campaigners from Youth Fight for Jobs, the Trades Council, the National Shop Stewards Network, the Socialist Party, Tamil Solidarity, trade union members from the RMT, Unison, Unite, and NUJ, and UAF and the SWP were out.
The EDL and MAC offer no solution to the problems faced by working class people living in Waltham Forest, such as cuts to much-needed services such as libraries and to benefits like the EMA payments to college students, as well as overcrowding and lack of jobs. In March of this year there were 18 JSA claimants for every vacancy in Waltham Forest. We need investment in job creation and in the services that people need – not cuts.
Many people received the WFACU leaflet which called for a united opposition to cuts, no to racism and division.
Our leaflet explained that: “Waltham Forest Anti-Cuts Union fights all cuts. We oppose all those forces that create divisions in the fight-back against cuts, and point the finger at the real culprits - the bankers, the bond traders, speculators and global finance companies.
“We stand for working class solidarity in Waltham Forest against any demands that workers pay for bankers’ greed, and we will not allow our neighbourhood and our fight-back to be divided along racist or religious lines.
“The best way to fight racism and fascism is to get rid of the problems that breed them – unemployment, low pay, housing shortages, public service cuts. We can have no faith in any of the main political parties to do this. Young people and workers need to join together to fight for ourselves - join our campaign!”

You or your ancestors choose to live in this country so live by its rules or leave

I agree with Paula.

She is absolutely right that these two groups – the EDL and MAC - offer nothing to all the working class people in the borough who face a major onslaught on our living conditions.
What solutions does either of them have for the young people facing unemployment and sky-high university fees? None!
Government ministers claim they have no choice but to make cuts - that we can't afford decent jobs, decent housing and decent health and education. It's rubbish.
There is a huge amount of money in Britain - but the super-rich and the bankers have it. Their wealth goes up and up and up! And we are expected to fight over the crumbs.
The Waltham Forest Anti-Cuts Union are absolutely right - to change that situation will require a mass united struggle so that we can actually have a say in how the money is spent.
So many council workers face having their terms and conditions torn up while private companies make a killing out of the privatisation of our services and jobs.
We cannot allow groups such as EDL or MAC to divide us.
The best way to do that is to get stuck into building a united fightback!

I'm glad we've got people like Realist12 talking sense to idiots like MAC and those who would divide us like Iftikhar Ahmad.

But sadly, Ena Admin is also right. I see growing support for islamic extremism on our streets. That's not good for anyone.

paulablackhorse wrote:
“Extremists marching” is only one side of the story of what happened in our borough on Saturday. Waltham Forest Anti-Cuts Union (WFACU) and other local groups were out in force in Walthamstow town square in a show of strength and unity against cuts but also against attempts to divide our movement. Campaigners from Youth Fight for Jobs, the Trades Council, the National Shop Stewards Network, the Socialist Party, Tamil Solidarity, trade union members from the RMT, Unison, Unite, and NUJ, and UAF and the SWP were out. The EDL and MAC offer no solution to the problems faced by working class people living in Waltham Forest, such as cuts to much-needed services such as libraries and to benefits like the EMA payments to college students, as well as overcrowding and lack of jobs. In March of this year there were 18 JSA claimants for every vacancy in Waltham Forest. We need investment in job creation and in the services that people need – not cuts. Many people received the WFACU leaflet which called for a united opposition to cuts, no to racism and division. Our leaflet explained that: “Waltham Forest Anti-Cuts Union fights all cuts. We oppose all those forces that create divisions in the fight-back against cuts, and point the finger at the real culprits - the bankers, the bond traders, speculators and global finance companies. “We stand for working class solidarity in Waltham Forest against any demands that workers pay for bankers’ greed, and we will not allow our neighbourhood and our fight-back to be divided along racist or religious lines. “The best way to fight racism and fascism is to get rid of the problems that breed them – unemployment, low pay, housing shortages, public service cuts. We can have no faith in any of the main political parties to do this. Young people and workers need to join together to fight for ourselves - join our campaign!”

"A show of strength and unity", Paula? I must have been in the wrong Town Square because I didn't notice any of this going on just some God-awful gospel choirs making an unholy racket (all puns intentional) until the MAC nutters turned up when they scuttled off.

RE Realist12.

I have a similar background and upbringing in this country to yours but i am more than twice your age. So i have seen much more of how education in this country affects muslim children. I have to totally agree with your comments. My education in an english school taught me alot about the british way of life whereas my imigrant parents could not teach me. I have seen from own experience how people that are educated in these muslim faith schools know less about the british way of life than my parents (that is putting it mildly). I am now in a position to teach my children how to be better citizens in this country.

People who grow up being educated by these muslim clerics in mosques and madrassas will forever segregate themselves from british society. Is that good? I think these muslim faith schools do not benefit society as a whole in this country and should be closed down for that reason alone. Can't see it happening though.

Sam Hain wrote:

paulablackhorse wrote: “Extremists marching” is only one side of the story of what happened in our borough on Saturday. Waltham Forest Anti-Cuts Union (WFACU) and other local groups were out in force in Walthamstow town square in a show of strength and unity against cuts but also against attempts to divide our movement. Campaigners from Youth Fight for Jobs, the Trades Council, the National Shop Stewards Network, the Socialist Party, Tamil Solidarity, trade union members from the RMT, Unison, Unite, and NUJ, and UAF and the SWP were out. The EDL and MAC offer no solution to the problems faced by working class people living in Waltham Forest, such as cuts to much-needed services such as libraries and to benefits like the EMA payments to college students, as well as overcrowding and lack of jobs. In March of this year there were 18 JSA claimants for every vacancy in Waltham Forest. We need investment in job creation and in the services that people need – not cuts. Many people received the WFACU leaflet which called for a united opposition to cuts, no to racism and division. Our leaflet explained that: “Waltham Forest Anti-Cuts Union fights all cuts. We oppose all those forces that create divisions in the fight-back against cuts, and point the finger at the real culprits - the bankers, the bond traders, speculators and global finance companies. “We stand for working class solidarity in Waltham Forest against any demands that workers pay for bankers’ greed, and we will not allow our neighbourhood and our fight-back to be divided along racist or religious lines. “The best way to fight racism and fascism is to get rid of the problems that breed them – unemployment, low pay, housing shortages, public service cuts. We can have no faith in any of the main political parties to do this. Young people and workers need to join together to fight for ourselves - join our campaign!”

"A show of strength and unity", Paula? I must have been in the wrong Town Square because I didn't notice any of this going on just some God-awful gospel choirs making an unholy racket (all puns intentional) until the MAC nutters turned up when they scuttled off.

Sam Hain - did you spend your entire day in the town square? Those groups were due at noon but due to their lack of support and incompetence they didn't make it until much later. Had you been there between 10.45 and 1.30 you could have chatted to campaigners on 6 or 7 stalls.

Lots of big talk on here by muslims, but how many decent mainstream muslims actually went out to protest against Anjem Choudray and his extremist chums? Precisely none, I fear. The only visible opponents to the various Islamic extremist groups are British fascist groups, and that is not a good sign. It's high time mainstream muslims got themselves out on the streets and protested against Islamic extremists. If you don't get out there and protest, the rest of us will assume that you agree with these extremists.

Learn the real and ugly iSlam in:

FaithFreedom.org

mad-who wrote:
Learn the real and ugly iSlam in:

FaithFreedom.org

Very revealing! Some very uncomfortable truths I think.

Thanks for the clarification, SarahSE. I was actually waiting in Leyton for the MAC march to start, which I was told would be at 12.30. When no-one showed up at that time I walked up to Town Square where I found things as I described them.

Hmm, I'm not convinced by FaithFreedom International. Their prospectus is as follows: "FaithFreedom International is a grassroots movement of ex-Muslims. It is created to expose the hidden truth about Islam and to help Muslims leave Islam. We don’t believe Islam can be reformed, but it can be eradicated. Just as light can dissipate darkness, truth will demolish lies." I'm an atheist so I should welcome the end of all organised religion but I'd rather it withered on the vine through education and rationality rather than being attacked, which is only likely to entrench attitudes which might, under different circumstances, simply fade away. Wicked things have happened in all faiths throughout time and it's right that these should be exposed but it strikes me this sort of website is infammatory, divisive and extremely one-sided. They talk about "hidden truth". By whom is it hidden and how can we be sure it is the truth? I think we need to gather our evidence from the widest possible sources to draw our own conclusions and not rely on the testimonies, however truthful, of self-confessed "ex-Muslims" who will inevitably be angry, dissappointed and disaffected - and therefore, ipso facto, not at all dispassionate. I'd rather cool heads not hotheads any day.

Iftikhar_Ahmad wrote:
Bilingual Muslims children have a right, as much as any other faith group, to be taught their culture, languages and faith alongside a mainstream curriculum. More faith schools will be opened under sweeping reforms of the education system in England. There is a dire need for the growth of state funded Muslim schools to meet the growing needs and demands of the Muslim parents and children. Now the time has come that parents and community should take over the running of their local schools. Parent-run schools will give the diversity, the choice and the competition that the wealthy have in the private sector. Parents can perform a better job than the Local Authority because parents have a genuine vested interest. The Local Authority simply cannot be trusted.

The British Government is planning to make it easier to schools to “opt out” from the Local Authorities. Muslim children in state schools feel isolated and confused about who they are. This can cause dissatisfaction and lead them into criminality, and the lack of a true understanding of Islam can ultimately make them more susceptible to the teachings of fundamentalists like Christians during the middle ages and Jews in recent times in Palestine. Fundamentalism is nothing to do with Islam and Muslim; you are either a Muslim or a non-Muslim.

There are hundreds of state primary and secondary schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. In my opinion all such schools may be opted out to become Muslim Academies. This mean the Muslim children will get a decent education. Muslim schools turned out balanced citizens, more tolerant of others and less likely to succumb to criminality or extremism. Muslim schools give young people confidence in who they are and an understanding of Islam’s teaching of tolerance and respect which prepares them for a positive and fulfilling role in society. Muslim schools are attractive to Muslim parents because they have better discipline and teaching Islamic values. Children like discipline, structure and boundaries. Bilingual Muslim children need Bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods, who understand their needs and demands.

None of the British Muslims convicted following the riots in Bradford and Oldham in 2001 or any of those linked to the London bombings had been to Islamic schools. An American Think Tank studied the educational back ground of 300 Jihadists; none of them were educated in Pakistani Madrasas. They were all Western educated by non-Muslim teachers. Bilingual Muslim children need bilingual Muslim teachers as role models. A Cambridge University study found that single-sex classes could make a big difference for boys. They perform better in single-sex classes. The research is promising because male students in the study saw noticeable gains in the grades. The study confirms the Islamic notion that academic achievement is better in single-sex classes.
Iftikhar Ahmad
http://www.londonsch

oolofislamics.org.uk

I am shocked at the selfish and narrow minded mentality to this statement.
The British society as a whole has bent over backwards to accommodate different cultures and religious outlooks and views yet you dare to criticise.
maybe you should consider actually integrating your views into British society rather than grabbing all you can get.
Maybe the cause of dissatisfaction and confusion is because the children are growing up in a multicultural society and the parents are pulling them back towards their own culture.
We used to have discipline in British schools but political correctness ruined that. Political correctness designed to allow different cultures to merge together but it is quite clear that you do not see any benefit to this.
Every British person has to consider the benefit to the wider society and take into account what is good for all across the board. Your outlook is introverted and secular.
It is quite apparent that you have no interest in multiculturalism and only wish to forward your own.

If the schools are not good enough and you only wish to concentrate on your own culture and religion then maybe you are part of the problem and should reconsider your stance.

Why are these type of marches even allowed in this country....surely anything that is anti Britain and anti British Law should be banned?!

While the EDL are also just as hypocritical as this lot at least their message is not anti British.

Like many others have said on here, most of us know that a few bunch of nutters do not represent the view of a whole community.

Waltham Forest is a good example of how all people can get on with very little problems between groups so I hope that this is the first and last march like this otherwise all might not stay so good.

A 5 year old boy from a strictly muslim family started school in this borough and the Head was told that no non-muslim female member of staff was allowed to touch him. The parents were waiting for a place in an islamic school to become available and then he would transfer - which he did, to the relief of the mostly female, non muslim staff. What they were supposed to do if he had an accident or fell ill?