Head of Islamic community group at Murray Hall sent threatening letter and subject to arson attack

Noor Ramjanally outside Murray Hall

Noor Ramjanally outside Murray Hall

First published in Epping Forest by

THE head of a recently formed Islamic community group has received a threatening letter and had his house targeted by arsonists in an apparently racist campaign against him.

Noor Ramjanally, of Valley Hill, Loughton, said his family had been very shaken by the incidents which started after he hired the Murray Hall, in Borders Lane, for Islamic prayer sessions.

He told the Guardian: “Every Friday we have our prayers and meetings, then we disperse. This Wednesday I received a threatening letter saying: 'We don't want you to carry on at this. We know which school your kid goes to and which car you drive.'

“On Thursday they set fire to the front door of my home. They used an accelerant. It's with the police and they are doing all the checks.

“I'm ok, but my wife and kid are very disturbed. I've had to take my kid out of his school.

“It's definitely targeted. They don't want the Islamic community centre in Loughton, I don't know why.”

Mr Ramjanally started to rent the hall at the end of March, from Loughton Town Council, holding sessions under the name Loughton Islamic Community Centre.

Town council mayor Ken Angold-Stephens said: “Any sort of racial incident of this sort is something which is absolutely regrettable in our area. I do hope the culprits are found and dealt with accordingly. We can't tolerate any incidents of that sort.”

Despite the threats, Mr Ramjanally has said he will not be deterred and plans to continue his work as before.

He said: “I want to say whatever happens we're staying here. We just need people to know what we are doing. We have got a lot of support- we get about 30 to 40 people every week. They are not going to stop us.”

Essex Police have confirmed they are investigating both incidents as racially motivated.

Anyone with information should call police on 0300 333 4444

Comments (41)

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2:18pm Fri 3 Jul 09

Katie Rolt says...

The Guardian may wish to future investigate this story, as when the hall first opened it was agreed by Loughton Town Council that the hall would be closed to ALL religious events/groups regardless of the religion. The point being it is a community hall and not a place of worship, so would remain neutral in regard to religion. It would seem the Town Council has changed its position.

The group involved have obviously tried to make out as if the hall is solely theirs by calling themselves ‘Loughton Islamic Community Centre’. A more appropriate name for the group would be Loughton Islamic Community Group.

Lastly, weren’t the group aware that the hall is in an election ward where the BNP sit? I wonder if there is some sort of agenda behind their choice of venue.
The Guardian may wish to future investigate this story, as when the hall first opened it was agreed by Loughton Town Council that the hall would be closed to ALL religious events/groups regardless of the religion. The point being it is a community hall and not a place of worship, so would remain neutral in regard to religion. It would seem the Town Council has changed its position. The group involved have obviously tried to make out as if the hall is solely theirs by calling themselves ‘Loughton Islamic Community Centre’. A more appropriate name for the group would be Loughton Islamic Community Group. Lastly, weren’t the group aware that the hall is in an election ward where the BNP sit? I wonder if there is some sort of agenda behind their choice of venue. Katie Rolt
  • Score: 0

4:31pm Fri 3 Jul 09

Fresh Gravee says...

The whole of the surrounding areas are full of Mosques and Islamic Centres and it is only fair that Loughton should have at least one or two as the Muslim's of Loughton need a place of worship.
The whole of the surrounding areas are full of Mosques and Islamic Centres and it is only fair that Loughton should have at least one or two as the Muslim's of Loughton need a place of worship. Fresh Gravee
  • Score: 0

5:46pm Fri 3 Jul 09

Simon Weekes-Hughes says...

It is a valid point that Murray Hall was meant to be a religion free zone.

The hall isn’t an “Islamic Community Centre” put a community hall for hire, so it is wrong for this group to try and rename the hall or to try and give the impression that it is a religious building.

I don’t question the need for an Islamic group in Loughton. I do however question the group’s choice of name and choice of venue. Murray Hall is in the Debden part of Loughton which is very much a pro BNP area, also Murray Hall is extremely close to a Jewish Synagogue, so have to wonder if there is an agenda with regards to their choice of venue.
It is a valid point that Murray Hall was meant to be a religion free zone. The hall isn’t an “Islamic Community Centre” put a community hall for hire, so it is wrong for this group to try and rename the hall or to try and give the impression that it is a religious building. I don’t question the need for an Islamic group in Loughton. I do however question the group’s choice of name and choice of venue. Murray Hall is in the Debden part of Loughton which is very much a pro BNP area, also Murray Hall is extremely close to a Jewish Synagogue, so have to wonder if there is an agenda with regards to their choice of venue. Simon Weekes-Hughes
  • Score: 0

7:13pm Fri 3 Jul 09

JackSpur says...

Simon Weekes-Hughes wrote:
It is a valid point that Murray Hall was meant to be a religion free zone. The hall isn’t an “Islamic Community Centre” put a community hall for hire, so it is wrong for this group to try and rename the hall or to try and give the impression that it is a religious building. I don’t question the need for an Islamic group in Loughton. I do however question the group’s choice of name and choice of venue. Murray Hall is in the Debden part of Loughton which is very much a pro BNP area, also Murray Hall is extremely close to a Jewish Synagogue, so have to wonder if there is an agenda with regards to their choice of venue.
Don't think they have a hidden agenda. They are either unaware of how unpopular they are in that area or just plain crazy.
[quote][p][bold]Simon Weekes-Hughes[/bold] wrote: It is a valid point that Murray Hall was meant to be a religion free zone. The hall isn’t an “Islamic Community Centre” put a community hall for hire, so it is wrong for this group to try and rename the hall or to try and give the impression that it is a religious building. I don’t question the need for an Islamic group in Loughton. I do however question the group’s choice of name and choice of venue. Murray Hall is in the Debden part of Loughton which is very much a pro BNP area, also Murray Hall is extremely close to a Jewish Synagogue, so have to wonder if there is an agenda with regards to their choice of venue.[/p][/quote]Don't think they have a hidden agenda. They are either unaware of how unpopular they are in that area or just plain crazy. JackSpur
  • Score: 0

8:52pm Fri 3 Jul 09

inézc says...

The BNP are rife in that area - what a ridiculous place to try to open somewhere like that. Do they not read the newspapers?
The BNP are rife in that area - what a ridiculous place to try to open somewhere like that. Do they not read the newspapers? inézc
  • Score: 0

8:38am Sat 4 Jul 09

ConcernedofLoughton says...

Comment needed from the council regarding the religious use of this building I think.

Comment needed from the council regarding the religious use of this building I think. ConcernedofLoughton
  • Score: 0

9:12am Sat 4 Jul 09

9inch says...

This is terrible, maybe it has something to do with the slightly negative publicity that the Islamic community have attracted by their refusal to condemn the actions of some extremists within their own community. Maybe when Mr Ramjanally advertises his Islamic prayer sessions, in order to reassure non-muslems he might like to publicly condemn and disassociate himself from radical extremists that have started similar 'Islamic community groups' as nearby as Ilford and Barkingside.
This is terrible, maybe it has something to do with the slightly negative publicity that the Islamic community have attracted by their refusal to condemn the actions of some extremists within their own community. Maybe when Mr Ramjanally advertises his Islamic prayer sessions, in order to reassure non-muslems he might like to publicly condemn and disassociate himself from radical extremists that have started similar 'Islamic community groups' as nearby as Ilford and Barkingside. 9inch
  • Score: 0

11:00am Sat 4 Jul 09

danbrett says...

If Murray Hall is not meant to be used for religious activities, then you cannot blame the Muslim group that hired the hall but the people responsible for letting it out.

As for other allegations of a "hidden agenda" by holding prayer services near a synagogue, has any member of the Jewish community complained and are these prayer services posing any problem for Jews? Of course not.

It is outrageous that someone should be intimidated in this community, but unsurprising. Muslims have a right to freedom of worship and freedom of speech just like anyone else.

No doubt extremists will attempt to use this issue to attempt to bully the 30 or so Muslims who want to pray together on a Friday evening, which makes it incumbent on the moderate majority to stand with them and give their support to Mr Ramjanally and fellow Muslims. And since there is a campaign of harassment against him and his family, the town council must ensure that the prayer service is held at Murray Hall in defiance of the anti-Muslim bigots and to deny them a victory.
If Murray Hall is not meant to be used for religious activities, then you cannot blame the Muslim group that hired the hall but the people responsible for letting it out. As for other allegations of a "hidden agenda" by holding prayer services near a synagogue, has any member of the Jewish community complained and are these prayer services posing any problem for Jews? Of course not. It is outrageous that someone should be intimidated in this community, but unsurprising. Muslims have a right to freedom of worship and freedom of speech just like anyone else. No doubt extremists will attempt to use this issue to attempt to bully the 30 or so Muslims who want to pray together on a Friday evening, which makes it incumbent on the moderate majority to stand with them and give their support to Mr Ramjanally and fellow Muslims. And since there is a campaign of harassment against him and his family, the town council must ensure that the prayer service is held at Murray Hall in defiance of the anti-Muslim bigots and to deny them a victory. danbrett
  • Score: 0

11:44am Sat 4 Jul 09

danbrett says...

I just looked on the council's website and there's no mention that religious events cannot be held in Murray Hall. It says: "The building is available for hire for all sorts of different purposes - club nights and groups’ activities, meetings, classes, weddings and family celebrations, theatre performances, social occasions - the list is endless." http://www.loughton-
tc.gov.uk/4ltmh.htm

In fact, at least one Christian group, Christcare Ministries, already uses the hall for services: http://christcaremin
istries.com/

If Christians can use it for their events without controversy, then so should Muslims and anyone else in the local community who needs a venue.
I just looked on the council's website and there's no mention that religious events cannot be held in Murray Hall. It says: "The building is available for hire for all sorts of different purposes - club nights and groups’ activities, meetings, classes, weddings and family celebrations, theatre performances, social occasions - the list is endless." http://www.loughton- tc.gov.uk/4ltmh.htm In fact, at least one Christian group, Christcare Ministries, already uses the hall for services: http://christcaremin istries.com/ If Christians can use it for their events without controversy, then so should Muslims and anyone else in the local community who needs a venue. danbrett
  • Score: 0

12:25pm Sat 4 Jul 09

Fresh Gravee says...

danbrett wrote:
I just looked on the council's website and there's no mention that religious events cannot be held in Murray Hall. It says: "The building is available for hire for all sorts of different purposes - club nights and groups’ activities, meetings, classes, weddings and family celebrations, theatre performances, social occasions - the list is endless." http://www.loughton-

tc.gov.uk/4ltmh.htm

In fact, at least one Christian group, Christcare Ministries, already uses the hall for services: http://christcaremin

istries.com/

If Christians can use it for their events without controversy, then so should Muslims and anyone else in the local community who needs a venue.
I think it is a general dislike and fear of people wearing the ninjas.
[quote][p][bold]danbrett[/bold] wrote: I just looked on the council's website and there's no mention that religious events cannot be held in Murray Hall. It says: "The building is available for hire for all sorts of different purposes - club nights and groups’ activities, meetings, classes, weddings and family celebrations, theatre performances, social occasions - the list is endless." http://www.loughton- tc.gov.uk/4ltmh.htm In fact, at least one Christian group, Christcare Ministries, already uses the hall for services: http://christcaremin istries.com/ If Christians can use it for their events without controversy, then so should Muslims and anyone else in the local community who needs a venue.[/p][/quote]I think it is a general dislike and fear of people wearing the ninjas. Fresh Gravee
  • Score: 0

1:23pm Sat 4 Jul 09

bluewhale says...

Does Whitechapel still exist?
Does Whitechapel still exist? bluewhale
  • Score: 0

4:10pm Sat 4 Jul 09

AishaD says...

danbrett wrote:
I just looked on the council's website and there's no mention that religious events cannot be held in Murray Hall. It says: "The building is available for hire for all sorts of different purposes - club nights and groups’ activities, meetings, classes, weddings and family celebrations, theatre performances, social occasions - the list is endless." http://www.loughton- tc.gov.uk/4ltmh.htm In fact, at least one Christian group, Christcare Ministries, already uses the hall for services: http://christcaremin istries.com/ If Christians can use it for their events without controversy, then so should Muslims and anyone else in the local community who needs a venue.
As per usual Muslims have been a victim of islamophobic abuse, why? Seriously i would like to know why? What are people so afraid of? We believe in a God and if a person believes in a God then i very much doubt that his God would want him to harm anyone, it is common sense. It is high time that ignorant bigotts such as the BNP educated themselves by NOT reading the papers and/or watching the news which is completely biased and only demotes Islam. I am a white BRITISH Muslim woman and chose Islam because it is far better than British society which i actually am ashamed of. Danbrett is correct if there are not any rules for the use of the hal then ANYBODY should be able to use it regardless of religion. Stop being so bloody racist, its sickening!
[quote][p][bold]danbrett[/bold] wrote: I just looked on the council's website and there's no mention that religious events cannot be held in Murray Hall. It says: "The building is available for hire for all sorts of different purposes - club nights and groups’ activities, meetings, classes, weddings and family celebrations, theatre performances, social occasions - the list is endless." http://www.loughton- tc.gov.uk/4ltmh.htm In fact, at least one Christian group, Christcare Ministries, already uses the hall for services: http://christcaremin istries.com/ If Christians can use it for their events without controversy, then so should Muslims and anyone else in the local community who needs a venue.[/p][/quote]As per usual Muslims have been a victim of islamophobic abuse, why? Seriously i would like to know why? What are people so afraid of? We believe in a God and if a person believes in a God then i very much doubt that his God would want him to harm anyone, it is common sense. It is high time that ignorant bigotts such as the BNP educated themselves by NOT reading the papers and/or watching the news which is completely biased and only demotes Islam. I am a white BRITISH Muslim woman and chose Islam because it is far better than British society which i actually am ashamed of. Danbrett is correct if there are not any rules for the use of the hal then ANYBODY should be able to use it regardless of religion. Stop being so bloody racist, its sickening! AishaD
  • Score: 0

4:58pm Sat 4 Jul 09

danbrett says...

AishaD: I don't think Islam is incompatible with British society. There are thousands of British people living and working happily in the UAE - there are probably more Brits than there are Emiratis in Dubai! Their lifestyle is tolerated and no-one is throwing petrol bombs at their homes. There's no incompatibility provided people have respect and tolerance of each other.

It is a big problem when a law-abiding Muslim decides to hold prayers for 45 minutes once a week in a community centre has a petrol bomb thrown at his house and threats against him and his family. People here are responding by implying that they deserved it in some way because it is a BNP ward and apparently performing salat is not permissible in Alderton ward. All councillors, whatever their party, should condemn without reservation violent attacks on those they are elected to represent and uphold their right to freedom of religion and freedom of worship in an atmosphere of tolerance and in accordance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which enshrines the values of any democratic society.
AishaD: I don't think Islam is incompatible with British society. There are thousands of British people living and working happily in the UAE - there are probably more Brits than there are Emiratis in Dubai! Their lifestyle is tolerated and no-one is throwing petrol bombs at their homes. There's no incompatibility provided people have respect and tolerance of each other. It is a big problem when a law-abiding Muslim decides to hold prayers for 45 minutes once a week in a community centre has a petrol bomb thrown at his house and threats against him and his family. People here are responding by implying that they deserved it in some way because it is a BNP ward and apparently performing salat is not permissible in Alderton ward. All councillors, whatever their party, should condemn without reservation violent attacks on those they are elected to represent and uphold their right to freedom of religion and freedom of worship in an atmosphere of tolerance and in accordance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which enshrines the values of any democratic society. danbrett
  • Score: 0

9:36pm Sun 5 Jul 09

9inch says...

So is Mr Ramjanally going to publicly condemn and distance himself from Muslem extremism? . . . . . . I thought not. What religion were the London Bombers? The 911 Hijackers? What religion is the Taliban? What religion allows the public stoning of woman? Yeah you guessed right and now we are supposed to be sympathetic when a representative of that same community launches a community group in Loughton without distancing him self and condemning those extremists that are the loudest voice within his religious community, instead we have a public complaint from him of harrassment. Mr Ramjanally, put up or shut up and shut down his community group until he publicly condemns islamic extremism.
So is Mr Ramjanally going to publicly condemn and distance himself from Muslem extremism? . . . . . . I thought not. What religion were the London Bombers? The 911 Hijackers? What religion is the Taliban? What religion allows the public stoning of woman? Yeah you guessed right and now we are supposed to be sympathetic when a representative of that same community launches a community group in Loughton without distancing him self and condemning those extremists that are the loudest voice within his religious community, instead we have a public complaint from him of harrassment. Mr Ramjanally, put up or shut up and shut down his community group until he publicly condemns islamic extremism. 9inch
  • Score: 0

9:55pm Sun 5 Jul 09

danbrett says...

"So is Mr Ramjanally going to publicly condemn and distance himself from Muslem extremism?"

Why should he? He's not an extremist. Should every Christian apologise for slavery, for the genocide of native Americans, for the Nazi Holocaust, etc? The notion that he should "put up" with having his house petrol bombed because he follows a religion in whose name atrocities were committed is itself condoning terrorism. You are no better than one of those who tries to justify terrorism in the name of Islam. And I think you should be the one apologising, not Mr Ramjanally. His only intention is to provide a space for a few Muslims to pray once a week, but you have ascribed to him views he has not expressed. It's the most disgusting and repulsive form of bigotry that only seeks to incite racial hatred and violence against a minority community.
"So is Mr Ramjanally going to publicly condemn and distance himself from Muslem extremism?" Why should he? He's not an extremist. Should every Christian apologise for slavery, for the genocide of native Americans, for the Nazi Holocaust, etc? The notion that he should "put up" with having his house petrol bombed because he follows a religion in whose name atrocities were committed is itself condoning terrorism. You are no better than one of those who tries to justify terrorism in the name of Islam. And I think you should be the one apologising, not Mr Ramjanally. His only intention is to provide a space for a few Muslims to pray once a week, but you have ascribed to him views he has not expressed. It's the most disgusting and repulsive form of bigotry that only seeks to incite racial hatred and violence against a minority community. danbrett
  • Score: 0

1:18pm Mon 6 Jul 09

Fresh Gravee says...

It is good for the community to have a diverse religious community.
It is good for the community to have a diverse religious community. Fresh Gravee
  • Score: 0

1:32pm Mon 6 Jul 09

Chanie271075 says...

Hi

I dont know Mr Ramjanally but what this guy is going is great. I am a true believer in Christian and I definitely Condemned this action towards himself and family.

I am sure Mr Ramjanamally can use any hall or anywhere in Loughton for him to carry on his prayer.

Mr Ramjanally you have my Full support and WE will support you and your family all way through.

Any of you peoples out there should really be in touch with him to give him all the support.
Hi I dont know Mr Ramjanally but what this guy is going is great. I am a true believer in Christian and I definitely Condemned this action towards himself and family. I am sure Mr Ramjanamally can use any hall or anywhere in Loughton for him to carry on his prayer. Mr Ramjanally you have my Full support and WE will support you and your family all way through. Any of you peoples out there should really be in touch with him to give him all the support. Chanie271075
  • Score: 0

5:38am Tue 7 Jul 09

9inch says...

danbrett wrote:
"So is Mr Ramjanally going to publicly condemn and distance himself from Muslem extremism?"

Why should he? He's not an extremist. Should every Christian apologise for slavery, for the genocide of native Americans, for the Nazi Holocaust, etc? The notion that he should "put up" with having his house petrol bombed because he follows a religion in whose name atrocities were committed is itself condoning terrorism. You are no better than one of those who tries to justify terrorism in the name of Islam. And I think you should be the one apologising, not Mr Ramjanally. His only intention is to provide a space for a few Muslims to pray once a week, but you have ascribed to him views he has not expressed. It's the most disgusting and repulsive form of bigotry that only seeks to incite racial hatred and violence against a minority community.
Slavery and The Holocaust are HISTORICAL. Muselm extremism is happening RIGHT NOW in 'Islamic Community Centres' in Ilford, Barkingside, Finsbury Park and many places in the UK, why is it too much to ask that Mr Ramjanally publicly condemn and distance his new organisation from these other similarly named 'Islamic Community Centres' that are also close by that have been openly involved in religious extremism. I am not asking for an apology from Mr Ramjanally for historical events, simply for an assurance that his 'Islamic community Centre' is not like many other 'Islamic community centres' that engage in these activities, all he has to do is publicly condemn and disassociate his venture from these others, surely he would want to do this to avoid confusion and reassure the local community that his gatherings are completely peaceful and that they will not attract the extremists that do as a matter of proven fact practice locally within his community.
[quote][p][bold]danbrett[/bold] wrote: "So is Mr Ramjanally going to publicly condemn and distance himself from Muslem extremism?" Why should he? He's not an extremist. Should every Christian apologise for slavery, for the genocide of native Americans, for the Nazi Holocaust, etc? The notion that he should "put up" with having his house petrol bombed because he follows a religion in whose name atrocities were committed is itself condoning terrorism. You are no better than one of those who tries to justify terrorism in the name of Islam. And I think you should be the one apologising, not Mr Ramjanally. His only intention is to provide a space for a few Muslims to pray once a week, but you have ascribed to him views he has not expressed. It's the most disgusting and repulsive form of bigotry that only seeks to incite racial hatred and violence against a minority community.[/p][/quote]Slavery and The Holocaust are HISTORICAL. Muselm extremism is happening RIGHT NOW in 'Islamic Community Centres' in Ilford, Barkingside, Finsbury Park and many places in the UK, why is it too much to ask that Mr Ramjanally publicly condemn and distance his new organisation from these other similarly named 'Islamic Community Centres' that are also close by that have been openly involved in religious extremism. I am not asking for an apology from Mr Ramjanally for historical events, simply for an assurance that his 'Islamic community Centre' is not like many other 'Islamic community centres' that engage in these activities, all he has to do is publicly condemn and disassociate his venture from these others, surely he would want to do this to avoid confusion and reassure the local community that his gatherings are completely peaceful and that they will not attract the extremists that do as a matter of proven fact practice locally within his community. 9inch
  • Score: 0

8:36am Tue 7 Jul 09

danbrett says...

You said he should "put up" with having his house firebombed and family harassed. You tarred all Muslims with the same brush. Others have said that he should expect to have this treatment in a BNP ward. It is pure and simple racist bigotry that excuses or ignores the fact that this man and his family are victims of crime. I don't think he should take any lectures from you or any other bigot commenting here.
You said he should "put up" with having his house firebombed and family harassed. You tarred all Muslims with the same brush. Others have said that he should expect to have this treatment in a BNP ward. It is pure and simple racist bigotry that excuses or ignores the fact that this man and his family are victims of crime. I don't think he should take any lectures from you or any other bigot commenting here. danbrett
  • Score: 0

9:56am Tue 7 Jul 09

danbrett says...

It will be interesting to see whether local BNP councillors, who belong to a party that has waged a campaign of hate against Muslims, will distance themselves and condemn without reservation the violence and threats against Mr Ramjanally and his family.
It will be interesting to see whether local BNP councillors, who belong to a party that has waged a campaign of hate against Muslims, will distance themselves and condemn without reservation the violence and threats against Mr Ramjanally and his family. danbrett
  • Score: 0

4:23pm Tue 7 Jul 09

anotherresident says...

I am with danbrett on this one. There is no reason that someone should have to distance themselves from extremists to be left in peace to practice their religion.
People looking for an agenda in the location are indulging in a rather tedious conspiracy theory.
Those who attack the homes of people due to their religion are the bigots who help create extremists.
I am with danbrett on this one. There is no reason that someone should have to distance themselves from extremists to be left in peace to practice their religion. People looking for an agenda in the location are indulging in a rather tedious conspiracy theory. Those who attack the homes of people due to their religion are the bigots who help create extremists. anotherresident
  • Score: 0

4:37pm Tue 7 Jul 09

9inch says...

I said absolutely nothing of the sort. I condemn any harassment or violence towards him and his family, I also condemn the violence and harassment caused by Islamic extremists, it seems that you and Mr Ramjanally will not. Also in reference to you taking offense at my calls for this Islamic community centre to distance itself and condemn other local islamic community centres that engage in extremism, I am not interested or in the slightest bit insulted by your offence or the fact that you are continually attacking and insulting me, if this is being bigoted then you have no understanding of the definition of bigotry. Any peaceful person should be proud to condemn violence and distance himself from it, Mr Ramjanally apparently will not condemn and distance himself from Islamic extremism and neither will you it seems.
I said absolutely nothing of the sort. I condemn any harassment or violence towards him and his family, I also condemn the violence and harassment caused by Islamic extremists, it seems that you and Mr Ramjanally will not. Also in reference to you taking offense at my calls for this Islamic community centre to distance itself and condemn other local islamic community centres that engage in extremism, I am not interested or in the slightest bit insulted by your offence or the fact that you are continually attacking and insulting me, if this is being bigoted then you have no understanding of the definition of bigotry. Any peaceful person should be proud to condemn violence and distance himself from it, Mr Ramjanally apparently will not condemn and distance himself from Islamic extremism and neither will you it seems. 9inch
  • Score: 0

5:05pm Tue 7 Jul 09

danbrett says...

"I condemn any harassment or violence towards him and his family"

But you said "Mr Ramjanally, put up or shut up" - if you are not saying that he should put up with attacks on his home, then what are you suggesting?

Mr Ramjanally has reported a serious racist incident. Why must he then qualify his beliefs as if that would make him more or less deserving of having his family terrorised? HE is not committing crimes, HE is not a member of the Taliban or Al-Qaeda, HE wasn't involved in 9/11, so why the hell should he - as a victim of crime - make any statement on terrorist atrocities he has nothing to do with?

You said, "now we are supposed to be sympathetic when a representative of that same community launches a community group in Loughton without distancing him self and condemning those extremists." Clearly, you were implying that Muslims have some collective guilt and should make a special qualifying statement demonstrating that they are not planning to blow things up. Mr Ramjanally is not a terrorist and is not under suspicion, so should not be treated as a criminal.
"I condemn any harassment or violence towards him and his family" But you said "Mr Ramjanally, put up or shut up" - if you are not saying that he should put up with attacks on his home, then what are you suggesting? Mr Ramjanally has reported a serious racist incident. Why must he then qualify his beliefs as if that would make him more or less deserving of having his family terrorised? HE is not committing crimes, HE is not a member of the Taliban or Al-Qaeda, HE wasn't involved in 9/11, so why the hell should he - as a victim of crime - make any statement on terrorist atrocities he has nothing to do with? You said, "now we are supposed to be sympathetic when a representative of that same community launches a community group in Loughton without distancing him self and condemning those extremists." Clearly, you were implying that Muslims have some collective guilt and should make a special qualifying statement demonstrating that they are not planning to blow things up. Mr Ramjanally is not a terrorist and is not under suspicion, so should not be treated as a criminal. danbrett
  • Score: 0

8:34pm Tue 7 Jul 09

9inch says...

Yes absolutely, it is the responsibility of Muslem leaders to condemn the terrorism and extremism that exists within their community and they do not do this, here is another example, a new leader from the Muslem community and he does not distance himself from the radicals from within his community - and you support this. 'put up or shut up' means 'take action' and he refuses to take the action of distancing himself from those radicals within his community, those very same radicals that have caused their own religious community to be viewed in such a negative light. If he is peaceful and not a member or supportive of any of the groups you have mentioned then he should have no problem in clearly defining this by publicly distancing himself from them in the same public way that he is advertising his 'Islamic Community Centre' and engaging the local press of the unfortunate harassment incident instead of making this a private matter between himself and the police.
Yes absolutely, it is the responsibility of Muslem leaders to condemn the terrorism and extremism that exists within their community and they do not do this, here is another example, a new leader from the Muslem community and he does not distance himself from the radicals from within his community - and you support this. 'put up or shut up' means 'take action' and he refuses to take the action of distancing himself from those radicals within his community, those very same radicals that have caused their own religious community to be viewed in such a negative light. If he is peaceful and not a member or supportive of any of the groups you have mentioned then he should have no problem in clearly defining this by publicly distancing himself from them in the same public way that he is advertising his 'Islamic Community Centre' and engaging the local press of the unfortunate harassment incident instead of making this a private matter between himself and the police. 9inch
  • Score: 0

10:21pm Tue 7 Jul 09

danbrett says...

"a new leader from the Muslem community and he does not distance himself from the radicals from within his community"

But that's your unfounded allegation. How do you know he doesn't condemn terrorism? The story is about a racist attack on him, not about his views on extremism. You are trying to twist it around to portray him as a perpetrator of extremism, as if to excuse or downplay it. In short, you are libelling him perhaps because you, deep down, are indifferent towards or supportive of attacks on Muslims. Certainly, you have been working hard to downplay or dismiss this attack and change the topic.

"instead of making this a private matter between himself and the police"

No crime is a private matter between the police and the victim. It is a problem for the community as a whole. That's why we have crime statistics, police neighbourhood panels, neighbourhood watch, incident reports in the newspapers, etc. This attack is a matter for everyone to deal with.

My family were the target of a similar racist attack, although we are not Muslims. Frankly, we should have gone to the press instead of feeling too afraid to speak out because only then will Loughton face up to its deep-rooted problem with racism.

I salute Mr Ramjanally's courage in coming out and speaking about the attack on his family. He has given confidence to me and my family and I hope other victims of racist attacks in this town also start speaking out and ignore bigots like you who try to dismiss our concerns and attack us.
"a new leader from the Muslem community and he does not distance himself from the radicals from within his community" But that's your unfounded allegation. How do you know he doesn't condemn terrorism? The story is about a racist attack on him, not about his views on extremism. You are trying to twist it around to portray him as a perpetrator of extremism, as if to excuse or downplay it. In short, you are libelling him perhaps because you, deep down, are indifferent towards or supportive of attacks on Muslims. Certainly, you have been working hard to downplay or dismiss this attack and change the topic. "instead of making this a private matter between himself and the police" No crime is a private matter between the police and the victim. It is a problem for the community as a whole. That's why we have crime statistics, police neighbourhood panels, neighbourhood watch, incident reports in the newspapers, etc. This attack is a matter for everyone to deal with. My family were the target of a similar racist attack, although we are not Muslims. Frankly, we should have gone to the press instead of feeling too afraid to speak out because only then will Loughton face up to its deep-rooted problem with racism. I salute Mr Ramjanally's courage in coming out and speaking about the attack on his family. He has given confidence to me and my family and I hope other victims of racist attacks in this town also start speaking out and ignore bigots like you who try to dismiss our concerns and attack us. danbrett
  • Score: 0

3:02am Wed 8 Jul 09

9inch says...

It's an unfounded allegation that there are radicals within the local muselm community? It's a proven fact! 2 muslems from Barkingside arrested in connect with planning the attacks on Heathrow airport that resulted in an almost worldwide ban on carrying liquids on flights. One of the London bombers was from Luton. Look at the radical muselms in Finsbury Park, Walthamstow and the most outspoken of these extremists is currently living in Gants Hill - the list goes on . . . . .
It's an unfounded allegation that there are radicals within the local muselm community? It's a proven fact! 2 muslems from Barkingside arrested in connect with planning the attacks on Heathrow airport that resulted in an almost worldwide ban on carrying liquids on flights. One of the London bombers was from Luton. Look at the radical muselms in Finsbury Park, Walthamstow and the most outspoken of these extremists is currently living in Gants Hill - the list goes on . . . . . 9inch
  • Score: 0

8:30am Wed 8 Jul 09

Chanie271075 says...

Look at you all. why do you keep bickering about something which is not here? Mr Ramjanally is not involved with any group.

Talking to peoples around Mr Ramjanally when he started he organised an exhibition where the Essex Police and The Staples Road Junior School Attend. Do you there is something wrong here? Of course not. Slowly slowly he is trying to win the Loughton Community trust that we all can live in a multi faith area where everyone respect each other.

I would imagine Mr Ramjanally will eventually realease a statement shortly.

In the meantime be supportive to him NOT against him.
I am sure tomorrow you anyone in trouble and they go and seek help from his Centre he will be always here to help you.

I will be shortly organising a gathering in loughton to support Mr Ramjanlly. If anybody oppose what happen to Mr Ramjanlly I would invite you to meet in Sainsburys car park tomorrow at 4pm and show your support to Mr Ramjanally and Stop Racism in Loughton.
Look at you all. why do you keep bickering about something which is not here? Mr Ramjanally is not involved with any group. Talking to peoples around Mr Ramjanally when he started he organised an exhibition where the Essex Police and The Staples Road Junior School Attend. Do you there is something wrong here? Of course not. Slowly slowly he is trying to win the Loughton Community trust that we all can live in a multi faith area where everyone respect each other. I would imagine Mr Ramjanally will eventually realease a statement shortly. In the meantime be supportive to him NOT against him. I am sure tomorrow you anyone in trouble and they go and seek help from his Centre he will be always here to help you. I will be shortly organising a gathering in loughton to support Mr Ramjanlly. If anybody oppose what happen to Mr Ramjanlly I would invite you to meet in Sainsburys car park tomorrow at 4pm and show your support to Mr Ramjanally and Stop Racism in Loughton. Chanie271075
  • Score: 0

9:27am Wed 8 Jul 09

danbrett says...

"It's an unfounded allegation that there are radicals within the local muselm community?"

It's a disgusting smear against Mr Ramjanally to suggest that he is involved in any extremism. This article is about a serious racist attack, not about his political views. I've spoken to him and I don't for one moment think he is an extremist - quite the opposite, he wants to have good relations with the rest of the community. You have made judgements about him because you say he has not made a statement about his views - but this is not an article about his views, it is about him being a victim of an attack intended to harass and intimidate him and his family. And I suggest all decent people support him and stand with him.
"It's an unfounded allegation that there are radicals within the local muselm community?" It's a disgusting smear against Mr Ramjanally to suggest that he is involved in any extremism. This article is about a serious racist attack, not about his political views. I've spoken to him and I don't for one moment think he is an extremist - quite the opposite, he wants to have good relations with the rest of the community. You have made judgements about him because you say he has not made a statement about his views - but this is not an article about his views, it is about him being a victim of an attack intended to harass and intimidate him and his family. And I suggest all decent people support him and stand with him. danbrett
  • Score: 0

9:36am Wed 8 Jul 09

9inch says...

I have said nothing of the sort, simply that if he is going to open an Islamic Community Centre he should, as a leader of a local Islamic Organisation, condemn (as I do, and I am not even a Muslm) this kind of thing that is happening locally and within his Muslem community: http://www.guardian-
series.co.uk/news/rb
news/4478996.REDBRID
GE__Religious_fanati
c_convicted_of_arson
/?ref=rss
I have said nothing of the sort, simply that if he is going to open an Islamic Community Centre he should, as a leader of a local Islamic Organisation, condemn (as I do, and I am not even a Muslm) this kind of thing that is happening locally and within his Muslem community: http://www.guardian- series.co.uk/news/rb news/4478996.REDBRID GE__Religious_fanati c_convicted_of_arson /?ref=rss 9inch
  • Score: 0

9:48am Wed 8 Jul 09

danbrett says...

9inch wrote:
I have said nothing of the sort, simply that if he is going to open an Islamic Community Centre he should, as a leader of a local Islamic Organisation, condemn (as I do, and I am not even a Muslm) this kind of thing that is happening locally and within his Muslem community: http://www.guardian-

series.co.uk/news/rb

news/4478996.REDBRID

GE__Religious_fanati

c_convicted_of_arson

/?ref=rss
But you have tried your best to divert discussion from the racist attack - which is what this article is about - onto one about extremism and then claimed that Mr Ramjanally has not condemned extremism. How do you know he has not condemned extremism and terrorism? Have you met him? Have you given him an opportunity to state his case? Would this satisfy anti-Muslim bigots like you and the BNP? Probably not. There is an intention among the racists in Loughton, including some councillors, to drive out all non-white people and Muslims are a soft target for them. Labelling him as an extremist is a way to justify bullying him. But as we have been the victims of the same kind of abuse and we are not Muslims, I can state that this has zero to do with his religion or his views and everything to do with endemic racism in Loughton. If people want to prove that Loughton is a decent town, they should stand up and condemn unequivocally all racist attacks, including the one on Mr Ramjanally.
[quote][p][bold]9inch[/bold] wrote: I have said nothing of the sort, simply that if he is going to open an Islamic Community Centre he should, as a leader of a local Islamic Organisation, condemn (as I do, and I am not even a Muslm) this kind of thing that is happening locally and within his Muslem community: http://www.guardian- series.co.uk/news/rb news/4478996.REDBRID GE__Religious_fanati c_convicted_of_arson /?ref=rss[/p][/quote]But you have tried your best to divert discussion from the racist attack - which is what this article is about - onto one about extremism and then claimed that Mr Ramjanally has not condemned extremism. How do you know he has not condemned extremism and terrorism? Have you met him? Have you given him an opportunity to state his case? Would this satisfy anti-Muslim bigots like you and the BNP? Probably not. There is an intention among the racists in Loughton, including some councillors, to drive out all non-white people and Muslims are a soft target for them. Labelling him as an extremist is a way to justify bullying him. But as we have been the victims of the same kind of abuse and we are not Muslims, I can state that this has zero to do with his religion or his views and everything to do with endemic racism in Loughton. If people want to prove that Loughton is a decent town, they should stand up and condemn unequivocally all racist attacks, including the one on Mr Ramjanally. danbrett
  • Score: 0

10:00am Wed 8 Jul 09

9inch says...

I should add AGAIN that I have nothing against Mr Ramjanally but it is a proven fact that Islamic extremism is alive and well and a huge problem locally (cut and paste the URL I posted in the above comment) and any new Islamic leader who is starting a new Islamic community group has a responsibility to assure the public that his Islamic community group will not attract or tolerate attendees with these radical views or behavior, if he has no connection with these types and no intention of allowing them to attend his groups why doesn't he just say so publicly? These are not political views, he has made himself a local Muselm leader and as such he should speak out against members of his (Islamic) community like the creature featured on the page that I included in the above comment.
I should add AGAIN that I have nothing against Mr Ramjanally but it is a proven fact that Islamic extremism is alive and well and a huge problem locally (cut and paste the URL I posted in the above comment) and any new Islamic leader who is starting a new Islamic community group has a responsibility to assure the public that his Islamic community group will not attract or tolerate attendees with these radical views or behavior, if he has no connection with these types and no intention of allowing them to attend his groups why doesn't he just say so publicly? These are not political views, he has made himself a local Muselm leader and as such he should speak out against members of his (Islamic) community like the creature featured on the page that I included in the above comment. 9inch
  • Score: 0

10:21am Wed 8 Jul 09

danbrett says...

How do you know he hasn't done exactly what you have said? Instead of jumping to conclusions, some people like me have spoken to him directly and are satisfied he is not an extremist - in fact, I think he wants to be as open as possible with the wider community and I think you will see a statement from him and his group very shortly. And if he does make a statement to the effect that his group does not support or condone extremism, will you and others apologise? Personally, I don't think a victim of crime has to justify themselves, but I guess that's the type of place we are living in.
How do you know he hasn't done exactly what you have said? Instead of jumping to conclusions, some people like me have spoken to him directly and are satisfied he is not an extremist - in fact, I think he wants to be as open as possible with the wider community and I think you will see a statement from him and his group very shortly. And if he does make a statement to the effect that his group does not support or condone extremism, will you and others apologise? Personally, I don't think a victim of crime has to justify themselves, but I guess that's the type of place we are living in. danbrett
  • Score: 0

11:12am Wed 8 Jul 09

JackSpur says...

This banter makes very good reading.
This banter makes very good reading. JackSpur
  • Score: 0

3:58pm Wed 8 Jul 09

9inch says...

I have never once said he is an extremist, what I have simply and repeatedly said is that 'Islamic Community Centres' can attract members of their religious community that harbor extreme Muslem views and that any responsible leader should distance his organization from these types of people and condemn the kind of activity contained in the above URL. Why should I apologize when I am simply calling for this, for a responsible peace loving local leader to condemn extremist muslems and assure the local community that his new centre will not attract these types of people and they will not be tolerated in Loughton. You can try to distort what I am saying all you want but that is all I have been asking for. If he makes such a statement I will welcome it finally being forthcoming because it will show he is a responsible leader, not apologize for asking for it in the first place. I am not asking for him as a victim of crime to justify himself, only that he has publicly announced his Islamic community Centre and in response to that my question is - will he assure us that no extremists will be attracted to it and tolerated by it and will he publicly distance himself and condemn that element of his community. You can try to distort what I have repeatedly said, just read my posts, they have all been saying the same thing and there is nothing racist or bigoted about it. I would also be interested to know if he supports Sharia Law in Britain.
I have never once said he is an extremist, what I have simply and repeatedly said is that 'Islamic Community Centres' can attract members of their religious community that harbor extreme Muslem views and that any responsible leader should distance his organization from these types of people and condemn the kind of activity contained in the above URL. Why should I apologize when I am simply calling for this, for a responsible peace loving local leader to condemn extremist muslems and assure the local community that his new centre will not attract these types of people and they will not be tolerated in Loughton. You can try to distort what I am saying all you want but that is all I have been asking for. If he makes such a statement I will welcome it finally being forthcoming because it will show he is a responsible leader, not apologize for asking for it in the first place. I am not asking for him as a victim of crime to justify himself, only that he has publicly announced his Islamic community Centre and in response to that my question is - will he assure us that no extremists will be attracted to it and tolerated by it and will he publicly distance himself and condemn that element of his community. You can try to distort what I have repeatedly said, just read my posts, they have all been saying the same thing and there is nothing racist or bigoted about it. I would also be interested to know if he supports Sharia Law in Britain. 9inch
  • Score: 0

4:15pm Wed 8 Jul 09

danbrett says...

You said: "is Mr Ramjanally going to publicly condemn and distance himself from Muslem extremism? . . . . . . I thought not."

"Mr Ramjanally apparently will not condemn and distance himself from Islamic extremism"

You asked the question then answered it yourself. You have not spoken to him, so how can you put words into his mouth? It is just a smear by a bigot.

If you had said something like "I completely condemn the violent harassment of Mr Ramjanally and his family, but it may be a good idea to demonstrate that his group has nothing to do with extremist ideology to reassure people", then fair enough. But you didn't say that. You accused him of failing to distance himself from extremism, despite the fact that he probably hasn't been given an opportunity to give a public answer. Now you realise how bigoted you look, you are trying to wriggle out of it. Absolutely pathetic.
You said: "is Mr Ramjanally going to publicly condemn and distance himself from Muslem extremism? . . . . . . I thought not." "Mr Ramjanally apparently will not condemn and distance himself from Islamic extremism" You asked the question then answered it yourself. You have not spoken to him, so how can you put words into his mouth? It is just a smear by a bigot. If you had said something like "I completely condemn the violent harassment of Mr Ramjanally and his family, but it may be a good idea to demonstrate that his group has nothing to do with extremist ideology to reassure people", then fair enough. But you didn't say that. You accused him of failing to distance himself from extremism, despite the fact that he probably hasn't been given an opportunity to give a public answer. Now you realise how bigoted you look, you are trying to wriggle out of it. Absolutely pathetic. danbrett
  • Score: 0

12:21am Thu 9 Jul 09

9inch says...

You do seem to be having an emotional little tantrum Daniel don't you! I think you ought to calm yourself down. Mr Ramjallanally has every opportunity to make a statement whenever he wants but we have heard nothing from him. He has answered my question by his silence, you should be his press relations man. Your last statement about me being bigoted and pathetic is a highly emotional and subjective statement on your part and a completely unfounded allegation, nothing specific I have said has been racist or bigoted in any way, I have responded every time you have replied without trying to wriggle out of anything. Yes I am accusing him of failing to distance himself from Islamic Extremism, I have said this many times. I have already said that I condemn the attack on him, read my earlier posts.
You do seem to be having an emotional little tantrum Daniel don't you! I think you ought to calm yourself down. Mr Ramjallanally has every opportunity to make a statement whenever he wants but we have heard nothing from him. He has answered my question by his silence, you should be his press relations man. Your last statement about me being bigoted and pathetic is a highly emotional and subjective statement on your part and a completely unfounded allegation, nothing specific I have said has been racist or bigoted in any way, I have responded every time you have replied without trying to wriggle out of anything. Yes I am accusing him of failing to distance himself from Islamic Extremism, I have said this many times. I have already said that I condemn the attack on him, read my earlier posts. 9inch
  • Score: 0

8:49am Thu 9 Jul 09

danbrett says...

"Mr Ramjallanally has every opportunity to make a statement whenever he wants but we have heard nothing from him."

Do you think the best place to make that statement is a comments section in a newspaper? Do you think anything but a small percentage of the local population will go online to read it? As I said, let the man speak for himself instead of putting words in his mouth. He is bringing together the faith community, the police, the press and some local councillors to talk about these issues. It seems like a better forum than this one.
"Mr Ramjallanally has every opportunity to make a statement whenever he wants but we have heard nothing from him." Do you think the best place to make that statement is a comments section in a newspaper? Do you think anything but a small percentage of the local population will go online to read it? As I said, let the man speak for himself instead of putting words in his mouth. He is bringing together the faith community, the police, the press and some local councillors to talk about these issues. It seems like a better forum than this one. danbrett
  • Score: 0

8:56am Thu 9 Jul 09

danbrett says...

"Mr Ramjallanally has every opportunity to make a statement whenever he wants but we have heard nothing from him."

Do you think the best place to make that statement is a comments section in a newspaper? Do you think anything but a small percentage of the local population will go online to read it? As I said, let the man speak for himself instead of putting words in his mouth. He is bringing together the faith community, the police, the press and councillors to talk about these issues. It seems like a better forum than this.
"Mr Ramjallanally has every opportunity to make a statement whenever he wants but we have heard nothing from him." Do you think the best place to make that statement is a comments section in a newspaper? Do you think anything but a small percentage of the local population will go online to read it? As I said, let the man speak for himself instead of putting words in his mouth. He is bringing together the faith community, the police, the press and councillors to talk about these issues. It seems like a better forum than this. danbrett
  • Score: 0

10:44am Thu 9 Jul 09

danbrett says...

Will you also be calling for BNP councillors, who have been stirring up anti-Muslim hatred locally, to condemn the attack on Mr Ramjanally and distance themselves from the terrorism waged against his family?
Will you also be calling for BNP councillors, who have been stirring up anti-Muslim hatred locally, to condemn the attack on Mr Ramjanally and distance themselves from the terrorism waged against his family? danbrett
  • Score: 0

3:36pm Thu 9 Jul 09

JackSpur says...

Don't stop now, i am enjoying this.
Don't stop now, i am enjoying this. JackSpur
  • Score: 0

5:43pm Thu 9 Jul 09

9inch says...

Yes I also call for the BNP councillors to call condemn the attacks against Mr Ramjamnamannally - now lets see if he does the same!
Yes I also call for the BNP councillors to call condemn the attacks against Mr Ramjamnamannally - now lets see if he does the same! 9inch
  • Score: 0

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