New coffee shop could help destroy 'village' of Wanstead

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A decision which has paved the way for another coffee shop chain to open a branch in a high street will threaten independent businesses, it is claimed.

Permission was granted for the premises formerly used by Enigma Hairdressers in High Street, Wanstead, to be used as a food and drink outlet on Wednesday.

In documents submitted to the regional planning committee west, Indigo Planning, acting on behalf of landlord Threadneedle Pensions Ltd, claimed its client had received interest from a coffee shop operator.

This has raised fears that another chain could be preparing to move in to the street, which already has branches of Starbucks and a Greggs, as well as a number of coffee shops.

Kerrie Dainty of Nice Croissant said: "It is disgusting that councillors have automatically let this happen.

"Wanstead is going the same way as other high streets, becoming places full of eateries.

"There is the potential of losing Wanstead Village as we know it.

"We are a stand alone business and don't need the competition of a high street chain.

"Considering the council want to support local businesses this seems like a complete reversal."

Tracy Reed of Time for Tea, which has only been open since October, agreed.

She said: "We don't really want another high street chain to come.

"But if the rents are really high maybe they are the only ones that can afford to pay them."

Permission for the change of use was passed by four votes to two.

Cllr Paul Canal voted against the plan. He said: "There is a target of 70 per cent retail units on the high street - Wanstead is now down to 57 per cent and this is a further erosion of that.

"We aren't short of coffee shops on the high street."

However, cllr Richard Hoskins, who voted for the new coffee shop, defended the decision.

He said: "Shopping habits and shopping centres have changed over the years. Coffee shops are becoming part of the high street and part of the shopping experience.

“I think a new coffee shop only will encourage people to go to Wanstead rather than deter them.

“Independent coffee shops offer something high street chains don’t – they are local people, offering a local service. I am sure they will survive.”

Comments (14)

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12:53pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Cornbeefur says...

'Tracy Reed of Time for Tea, which has only been open since October, agreed'

It is ok for the Nimby's who have now got their feet under the table then?

Competition is good, it raises standards and gives people choice especially Nice Croissant who rule their place with an iron fist.
'Tracy Reed of Time for Tea, which has only been open since October, agreed' It is ok for the Nimby's who have now got their feet under the table then? Competition is good, it raises standards and gives people choice especially Nice Croissant who rule their place with an iron fist. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

1:15pm Fri 8 Feb 13

hursthill says...

cornbeefur would be to scared to confront Tracy Reed with his opinion.
He is just a w----r who spends all day on-line making idiotic comments.
cornbeefur would be to scared to confront Tracy Reed with his opinion. He is just a w----r who spends all day on-line making idiotic comments. hursthill
  • Score: 0

1:22pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Cornbeefur says...

hursthill wrote:
cornbeefur would be to scared to confront Tracy Reed with his opinion.
He is just a w----r who spends all day on-line making idiotic comments.
And what do you class your poppycock comment as?

Far from intelligent and constructive.

Why would I not confront her? It is true, she has obtained her permission and now wants to ring fence and monopolise the area and not let anyone else have a chance at the same business. She would have been treading on other peoples toes by opening where she has and is now bleating about others trying to make a living.

Just because she has a few mothers blocking her shop with buggies does not mean that others cannot apply for a similar licence to sell Tea and Coffee.

In any business the strong survive.
[quote][p][bold]hursthill[/bold] wrote: cornbeefur would be to scared to confront Tracy Reed with his opinion. He is just a w----r who spends all day on-line making idiotic comments.[/p][/quote]And what do you class your poppycock comment as? Far from intelligent and constructive. Why would I not confront her? It is true, she has obtained her permission and now wants to ring fence and monopolise the area and not let anyone else have a chance at the same business. She would have been treading on other peoples toes by opening where she has and is now bleating about others trying to make a living. Just because she has a few mothers blocking her shop with buggies does not mean that others cannot apply for a similar licence to sell Tea and Coffee. In any business the strong survive. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

1:39pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Alan_1976 says...

Cornbeefur wrote:
hursthill wrote:
cornbeefur would be to scared to confront Tracy Reed with his opinion.
He is just a w----r who spends all day on-line making idiotic comments.
And what do you class your poppycock comment as?

Far from intelligent and constructive.

Why would I not confront her? It is true, she has obtained her permission and now wants to ring fence and monopolise the area and not let anyone else have a chance at the same business. She would have been treading on other peoples toes by opening where she has and is now bleating about others trying to make a living.

Just because she has a few mothers blocking her shop with buggies does not mean that others cannot apply for a similar licence to sell Tea and Coffee.

In any business the strong survive.
Mothers with small children. Now joining the groups targeted for bile from Cornbeefur. They join the illustrious ranks of the disabled, charity workers, good samaritans and the police.
[quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]hursthill[/bold] wrote: cornbeefur would be to scared to confront Tracy Reed with his opinion. He is just a w----r who spends all day on-line making idiotic comments.[/p][/quote]And what do you class your poppycock comment as? Far from intelligent and constructive. Why would I not confront her? It is true, she has obtained her permission and now wants to ring fence and monopolise the area and not let anyone else have a chance at the same business. She would have been treading on other peoples toes by opening where she has and is now bleating about others trying to make a living. Just because she has a few mothers blocking her shop with buggies does not mean that others cannot apply for a similar licence to sell Tea and Coffee. In any business the strong survive.[/p][/quote]Mothers with small children. Now joining the groups targeted for bile from Cornbeefur. They join the illustrious ranks of the disabled, charity workers, good samaritans and the police. Alan_1976
  • Score: 0

2:15pm Fri 8 Feb 13

mdj says...

It does seem odd for a small independent trader to imply that a council should have some sort of Five Year Plan for the provision of coffee houses. Such an approach might have stopped Nice Croissant opening in the first place.
Not long ago Waltham Forest had a consultation about its dying market. Being managerialist and controlling by nature, they didn't grasp that a market consists of its buyers, not the sellers, so they only asked the stallholders what they wanted, rather than the public. Amazingly, what they most wanted was less competition, coyly phrased as 'better spacing' between stalls.
Well, they're getting that all right: the place is dying even faster. Suppress choice, and the buyers will seek out the places where it survives.
Are Ms Dainty and Ms Reed not confident that their own product can see off any generic competition?
It does seem odd for a small independent trader to imply that a council should have some sort of Five Year Plan for the provision of coffee houses. Such an approach might have stopped Nice Croissant opening in the first place. Not long ago Waltham Forest had a consultation about its dying market. Being managerialist and controlling by nature, they didn't grasp that a market consists of its buyers, not the sellers, so they only asked the stallholders what they wanted, rather than the public. Amazingly, what they most wanted was less competition, coyly phrased as 'better spacing' between stalls. Well, they're getting that all right: the place is dying even faster. Suppress choice, and the buyers will seek out the places where it survives. Are Ms Dainty and Ms Reed not confident that their own product can see off any generic competition? mdj
  • Score: 0

2:33pm Fri 8 Feb 13

spcdust says...

It wasn't that long ago that a vocal campaigning group predicted the demise of Wanstead High Street with the arrival of Tesco Metro. Last time I looked it seemed to be doing okay.

Whilst multi nationals can seem threatening to the sole trader they can also add to the varied High Street landscape. What a sole trader should be looking to do is developing their own unique USP's to retain customers.
It wasn't that long ago that a vocal campaigning group predicted the demise of Wanstead High Street with the arrival of Tesco Metro. Last time I looked it seemed to be doing okay. Whilst multi nationals can seem threatening to the sole trader they can also add to the varied High Street landscape. What a sole trader should be looking to do is developing their own unique USP's to retain customers. spcdust
  • Score: 0

2:39pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Cornbeefur says...

mdj wrote:
It does seem odd for a small independent trader to imply that a council should have some sort of Five Year Plan for the provision of coffee houses. Such an approach might have stopped Nice Croissant opening in the first place.
Not long ago Waltham Forest had a consultation about its dying market. Being managerialist and controlling by nature, they didn't grasp that a market consists of its buyers, not the sellers, so they only asked the stallholders what they wanted, rather than the public. Amazingly, what they most wanted was less competition, coyly phrased as 'better spacing' between stalls.
Well, they're getting that all right: the place is dying even faster. Suppress choice, and the buyers will seek out the places where it survives.
Are Ms Dainty and Ms Reed not confident that their own product can see off any generic competition?
No, the are terrified of the competition and Enigma is in the best part of the High Street, is larger and has more passing trade and bigger windows.

Now that they have got their permission, they do not want anyone else to have a chance.
[quote][p][bold]mdj[/bold] wrote: It does seem odd for a small independent trader to imply that a council should have some sort of Five Year Plan for the provision of coffee houses. Such an approach might have stopped Nice Croissant opening in the first place. Not long ago Waltham Forest had a consultation about its dying market. Being managerialist and controlling by nature, they didn't grasp that a market consists of its buyers, not the sellers, so they only asked the stallholders what they wanted, rather than the public. Amazingly, what they most wanted was less competition, coyly phrased as 'better spacing' between stalls. Well, they're getting that all right: the place is dying even faster. Suppress choice, and the buyers will seek out the places where it survives. Are Ms Dainty and Ms Reed not confident that their own product can see off any generic competition?[/p][/quote]No, the are terrified of the competition and Enigma is in the best part of the High Street, is larger and has more passing trade and bigger windows. Now that they have got their permission, they do not want anyone else to have a chance. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

3:03pm Fri 8 Feb 13

LakeBreeze says...

Putting aside whether something's a chain or an independent, what I can't help thinking is that the last thing Wanstead High Street needs is yet another coffee shop/eatery of ANY kind.

I have great affection for this high street and it's my local one, but the number of cafes or similar eating and beverage places is absolutely off-the-charts ridiculous.

If anything would "save the high street" it would be a deliberate move to get more retail variety back into the street, rather than nothing but wall to wall cafes every step of the way. It's already a wonder how each of them even stays alive given the competition.
Putting aside whether something's a chain or an independent, what I can't help thinking is that the last thing Wanstead High Street needs is yet another coffee shop/eatery of ANY kind. I have great affection for this high street and it's my local one, but the number of cafes or similar eating and beverage places is absolutely off-the-charts ridiculous. If anything would "save the high street" it would be a deliberate move to get more retail variety back into the street, rather than nothing but wall to wall cafes every step of the way. It's already a wonder how each of them even stays alive given the competition. LakeBreeze
  • Score: 0

3:12pm Fri 8 Feb 13

mdj says...

'If anything would "save the high street" it would be a deliberate move to get more retail variety back into the street..'

That's surely our job to bring about as customers, rather than some top-down plan to decide? Suppose some planner decided that what your high st needed, based on regional averages, was two more kebab shops? I'm baffled how even in hard-up Waltham Forest there seems an endless supply of cups of coffee at £2 I could make better for 10p a short walk away at home. Perhaps there's something else on sale.

Lack of demand will quickly sort out the excess of supply.
'If anything would "save the high street" it would be a deliberate move to get more retail variety back into the street..' That's surely our job to bring about as customers, rather than some top-down plan to decide? Suppose some planner decided that what your high st needed, based on regional averages, was two more kebab shops? I'm baffled how even in hard-up Waltham Forest there seems an endless supply of cups of coffee at £2 I could make better for 10p a short walk away at home. Perhaps there's something else on sale. Lack of demand will quickly sort out the excess of supply. mdj
  • Score: 0

3:18pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Cornbeefur says...

mdj wrote:
'If anything would "save the high street" it would be a deliberate move to get more retail variety back into the street..'

That's surely our job to bring about as customers, rather than some top-down plan to decide? Suppose some planner decided that what your high st needed, based on regional averages, was two more kebab shops? I'm baffled how even in hard-up Waltham Forest there seems an endless supply of cups of coffee at £2 I could make better for 10p a short walk away at home. Perhaps there's something else on sale.

Lack of demand will quickly sort out the excess of supply.
Good points Sir, i cannot understand it either. Even if they make a pound on each cup there are 100's they need to sell. Apart from Coffee shops you have cafes pubs, bakeries, restaurants, supermarkets, petrol stations and even some sweet shops selling coffee, total madness.
[quote][p][bold]mdj[/bold] wrote: 'If anything would "save the high street" it would be a deliberate move to get more retail variety back into the street..' That's surely our job to bring about as customers, rather than some top-down plan to decide? Suppose some planner decided that what your high st needed, based on regional averages, was two more kebab shops? I'm baffled how even in hard-up Waltham Forest there seems an endless supply of cups of coffee at £2 I could make better for 10p a short walk away at home. Perhaps there's something else on sale. Lack of demand will quickly sort out the excess of supply.[/p][/quote]Good points Sir, i cannot understand it either. Even if they make a pound on each cup there are 100's they need to sell. Apart from Coffee shops you have cafes pubs, bakeries, restaurants, supermarkets, petrol stations and even some sweet shops selling coffee, total madness. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

3:39pm Fri 8 Feb 13

LakeBreeze says...

mdj wrote:
'If anything would "save the high street" it would be a deliberate move to get more retail variety back into the street..'

That's surely our job to bring about as customers, rather than some top-down plan to decide? Suppose some planner decided that what your high st needed, based on regional averages, was two more kebab shops? I'm baffled how even in hard-up Waltham Forest there seems an endless supply of cups of coffee at £2 I could make better for 10p a short walk away at home. Perhaps there's something else on sale.

Lack of demand will quickly sort out the excess of supply.
And I do indeed use the other shops in the high street in order to support them and bring business to them, and demonstrate a demand for other kinds of business.

But that's about all I can do as a local consumer.

It doesn't change the fact that when a new coffee shop puts in to come here, the permission is given.

The deliberate move from the top down is for them so say no to anyone new wanting to open yet another coffee shop.

Seems to be an endless yes, and I'm just incredulous as to how the demand IS there. I'm baffled. I sure don't use them.
[quote][p][bold]mdj[/bold] wrote: 'If anything would "save the high street" it would be a deliberate move to get more retail variety back into the street..' That's surely our job to bring about as customers, rather than some top-down plan to decide? Suppose some planner decided that what your high st needed, based on regional averages, was two more kebab shops? I'm baffled how even in hard-up Waltham Forest there seems an endless supply of cups of coffee at £2 I could make better for 10p a short walk away at home. Perhaps there's something else on sale. Lack of demand will quickly sort out the excess of supply.[/p][/quote]And I do indeed use the other shops in the high street in order to support them and bring business to them, and demonstrate a demand for other kinds of business. But that's about all I can do as a local consumer. It doesn't change the fact that when a new coffee shop puts in to come here, the permission is given. The deliberate move from the top down is for them so say no to anyone new wanting to open yet another coffee shop. Seems to be an endless yes, and I'm just incredulous as to how the demand IS there. I'm baffled. I sure don't use them. LakeBreeze
  • Score: 0

3:43pm Fri 8 Feb 13

Cornbeefur says...

LakeBreeze wrote:
mdj wrote:
'If anything would "save the high street" it would be a deliberate move to get more retail variety back into the street..'

That's surely our job to bring about as customers, rather than some top-down plan to decide? Suppose some planner decided that what your high st needed, based on regional averages, was two more kebab shops? I'm baffled how even in hard-up Waltham Forest there seems an endless supply of cups of coffee at £2 I could make better for 10p a short walk away at home. Perhaps there's something else on sale.

Lack of demand will quickly sort out the excess of supply.
And I do indeed use the other shops in the high street in order to support them and bring business to them, and demonstrate a demand for other kinds of business.

But that's about all I can do as a local consumer.

It doesn't change the fact that when a new coffee shop puts in to come here, the permission is given.

The deliberate move from the top down is for them so say no to anyone new wanting to open yet another coffee shop.

Seems to be an endless yes, and I'm just incredulous as to how the demand IS there. I'm baffled. I sure don't use them.
And Enigma has not closed down but moved into the little shop selling tatty old clothes next to the eels mashes pies liquors, mushy peas and gravees shop opposite now so it is not as though it went bust but a coffee shop is seen as more lucrative for that position maybe?
[quote][p][bold]LakeBreeze[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]mdj[/bold] wrote: 'If anything would "save the high street" it would be a deliberate move to get more retail variety back into the street..' That's surely our job to bring about as customers, rather than some top-down plan to decide? Suppose some planner decided that what your high st needed, based on regional averages, was two more kebab shops? I'm baffled how even in hard-up Waltham Forest there seems an endless supply of cups of coffee at £2 I could make better for 10p a short walk away at home. Perhaps there's something else on sale. Lack of demand will quickly sort out the excess of supply.[/p][/quote]And I do indeed use the other shops in the high street in order to support them and bring business to them, and demonstrate a demand for other kinds of business. But that's about all I can do as a local consumer. It doesn't change the fact that when a new coffee shop puts in to come here, the permission is given. The deliberate move from the top down is for them so say no to anyone new wanting to open yet another coffee shop. Seems to be an endless yes, and I'm just incredulous as to how the demand IS there. I'm baffled. I sure don't use them.[/p][/quote]And Enigma has not closed down but moved into the little shop selling tatty old clothes next to the eels mashes pies liquors, mushy peas and gravees shop opposite now so it is not as though it went bust but a coffee shop is seen as more lucrative for that position maybe? Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

10:18pm Sat 9 Feb 13

fgdfsdf says...

LakeBreeze wrote:
Putting aside whether something's a chain or an independent, what I can't help thinking is that the last thing Wanstead High Street needs is yet another coffee shop/eatery of ANY kind.

I have great affection for this high street and it's my local one, but the number of cafes or similar eating and beverage places is absolutely off-the-charts ridiculous.

If anything would "save the high street" it would be a deliberate move to get more retail variety back into the street, rather than nothing but wall to wall cafes every step of the way. It's already a wonder how each of them even stays alive given the competition.
I agree. Have a look at Chingford Mount. I grew up in Chingford and there were very few eateries there. In between say 1990 and 2002 I thought the number of eateries that opened in that period to be ridiculous. I visit the are regularly and I am staggered that at the number that have opened in the 10 years since. Someone in the planning department appears to be on the take.

The variety of shops at the Mount has dropped significantly as has the general standard in the area. It used to be a nice place.
[quote][p][bold]LakeBreeze[/bold] wrote: Putting aside whether something's a chain or an independent, what I can't help thinking is that the last thing Wanstead High Street needs is yet another coffee shop/eatery of ANY kind. I have great affection for this high street and it's my local one, but the number of cafes or similar eating and beverage places is absolutely off-the-charts ridiculous. If anything would "save the high street" it would be a deliberate move to get more retail variety back into the street, rather than nothing but wall to wall cafes every step of the way. It's already a wonder how each of them even stays alive given the competition.[/p][/quote]I agree. Have a look at Chingford Mount. I grew up in Chingford and there were very few eateries there. In between say 1990 and 2002 I thought the number of eateries that opened in that period to be ridiculous. I visit the are regularly and I am staggered that at the number that have opened in the 10 years since. Someone in the planning department appears to be on the take. The variety of shops at the Mount has dropped significantly as has the general standard in the area. It used to be a nice place. fgdfsdf
  • Score: 0

11:13pm Sat 9 Feb 13

JackDaniels says...

Do any of you realise how much it costs to run a shop where Enigma was?

The council tax is the same as the rent, weighing in at roughly £18k each per annum.

I don't blame them for finding less expensive premises.

The travel agent's became a charity shop as they are exempt from Council taxes. No-one else could afford it.
Do any of you realise how much it costs to run a shop where Enigma was? The council tax is the same as the rent, weighing in at roughly £18k each per annum. I don't blame them for finding less expensive premises. The travel agent's became a charity shop as they are exempt from Council taxes. No-one else could afford it. JackDaniels
  • Score: 0

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