Campaigners lodge appeal against Boris Johnson's decision to approve plan to turn historic Walthamstow Stadium into a housing estate

East London and West Essex Guardian Series: Walthamstow Stadium appeal 'lodged today by campaigners' Walthamstow Stadium appeal 'lodged today by campaigners'

AN APPEAL has been lodged against Boris Johnson's decision to approve controversial plans to turn Walthamstow Stadium into a housing estate.

The Mayor of London backed London & Quadrant's (L&Q) controversial proposal to build a 294 homes on the Chingford Road on Tuesday.

However, campaigners who want dog racing to return to the site have submitted a challenge to Communities Secretary Eric Pickles this morning (November 1).

Save Our Stow campaigner Ricky Holloway said: "There's a lot of problems with the plan and we've submitted an appeal on those grounds. There's a compelling case for Eric Pickles to address. We've got over 60 areas we'll be appealing on."

Those include the density of the development, the lack of affordable housing, and a traffic report which Mr Holloway claims is out of date.

He also claimed the mayor's report had not addressed millionaire Bob Morton's alternative plan, which he claimed would create 500 jobs - and said the report failed to explain where L&Q's 250 jobs would come from.

Chingford MP Iain Duncan Smith blasted Boris Johnson's decision and is set to meet with Eric Pickles tomorrow to discuss the issue.

Walthamstow MP Stella Creasy has also pledged to lobby Mr Pickles.
The two have been highly critical of L&Q's handling of the site, which has been left derelict since it closed in 2008.

They have called for alternative proposals to be considered, claiming the community is largely against the development of the stadium.


However, Mr Pickles told the Guardian this morning that his intervention would be out of the ordinary.

He said: "I have a completely open mind but it would be unusual were I to step in. I can only go on the basis of planning issues."

Boris Johnson said the stadium was an acceptable loss considering the benefits the development would bring the area, including a £1.75 million grant for improved facilities at the nearby Waltham Forest Pool & Track.

He also said no viable alternative for the site had been put forward. Speaking to the BBC this morning, Mr Johnson called the possibility of having a dog track "moribund" and said had he refused the application, he would have been overruled on appeal.

The Mayor had previously expressed concern at the viability of the development, with L&Q facing a large short-term loss which campaigners say would be offset by taxpayers' money.

L&Q maintain there would be no losses in the long-term.

The plan was initially approved by Waltham Forest Council in May.

Andy Rowland, a director at L&Q, said: “We are pleased that the Mayor of London has allowed our proposals for the Walthamstow Stadium site. We now look forward to beginning work as soon as we can, subject to meeting the remaining conditions in the planning process.

“We will build 294 much-needed, high quality homes for people on a range of incomes. Our scheme will bring £50m worth of investment into the borough, including £3.8 million to improve local leisure, education, health and transport facilities.

"This will preserve the architectural heritage of this iconic and historic site for the whole community. Our plans will also create up to 250 jobs, including many apprenticeships and training opportunities for local people.”

Comments (26)

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12:18pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

Pickles will not go against Boris's decision, they are friends.

I really cannot understand why people do not accept that times have changed since the Dog Track was built
Pickles will not go against Boris's decision, they are friends. I really cannot understand why people do not accept that times have changed since the Dog Track was built Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

12:56pm Thu 1 Nov 12

waltham says...

well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !!

if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !!
well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !! if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !! waltham
  • Score: 0

12:56pm Thu 1 Nov 12

waltham says...

well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !!

if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !!
well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !! if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !! waltham
  • Score: 0

12:56pm Thu 1 Nov 12

waltham says...

well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !!

if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !!
well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !! if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !! waltham
  • Score: 0

1:14pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

waltham wrote:
well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !!

if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !!
The units will be let to people needing housing and who have no interest in watching dogs chasing a toy hare around a track, gambling money they cannot afford to lose.

If the rents are too high they will receive Housing benefit through their entitlements.

The extra people will boost the economy locally.

The Track had its days which were great fun. Like all good things, they come to an end ultimately.

Why are you saying that I should 'foot the bill?'

I am not involved in anything there.
[quote][p][bold]waltham[/bold] wrote: well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !! if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !![/p][/quote]The units will be let to people needing housing and who have no interest in watching dogs chasing a toy hare around a track, gambling money they cannot afford to lose. If the rents are too high they will receive Housing benefit through their entitlements. The extra people will boost the economy locally. The Track had its days which were great fun. Like all good things, they come to an end ultimately. Why are you saying that I should 'foot the bill?' I am not involved in anything there. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

1:22pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Techno3 says...

Cornbeefur wrote:
waltham wrote:
well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !!

if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !!
The units will be let to people needing housing and who have no interest in watching dogs chasing a toy hare around a track, gambling money they cannot afford to lose.

If the rents are too high they will receive Housing benefit through their entitlements.

The extra people will boost the economy locally.

The Track had its days which were great fun. Like all good things, they come to an end ultimately.

Why are you saying that I should 'foot the bill?'

I am not involved in anything there.
Why do you care so much about things that do directly not concern you Cornbeefur? You said the other day you live in Marylebone.
[quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]waltham[/bold] wrote: well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !! if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !![/p][/quote]The units will be let to people needing housing and who have no interest in watching dogs chasing a toy hare around a track, gambling money they cannot afford to lose. If the rents are too high they will receive Housing benefit through their entitlements. The extra people will boost the economy locally. The Track had its days which were great fun. Like all good things, they come to an end ultimately. Why are you saying that I should 'foot the bill?' I am not involved in anything there.[/p][/quote]Why do you care so much about things that do directly not concern you Cornbeefur? You said the other day you live in Marylebone. Techno3
  • Score: 0

1:22pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Techno3 says...

Cornbeefur wrote:
waltham wrote:
well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !!

if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !!
The units will be let to people needing housing and who have no interest in watching dogs chasing a toy hare around a track, gambling money they cannot afford to lose.

If the rents are too high they will receive Housing benefit through their entitlements.

The extra people will boost the economy locally.

The Track had its days which were great fun. Like all good things, they come to an end ultimately.

Why are you saying that I should 'foot the bill?'

I am not involved in anything there.
Why do you care so much about things that do not directly concern you Cornbeefur? You said the other day you live in Marylebone.
[quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]waltham[/bold] wrote: well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !! if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !![/p][/quote]The units will be let to people needing housing and who have no interest in watching dogs chasing a toy hare around a track, gambling money they cannot afford to lose. If the rents are too high they will receive Housing benefit through their entitlements. The extra people will boost the economy locally. The Track had its days which were great fun. Like all good things, they come to an end ultimately. Why are you saying that I should 'foot the bill?' I am not involved in anything there.[/p][/quote]Why do you care so much about things that do not directly concern you Cornbeefur? You said the other day you live in Marylebone. Techno3
  • Score: 0

1:35pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Nancy Taaffe says...

The average "affordable rent" stands at 80% of market rents. Market rents in this area average at £1,200 a month. This is a land deal for a property company for property speculation. Boris/ IDS, Stella and Robbins for that matter all support this kind of developmen, they have for years.

Like the development beside the tube, like the proposal for the arcade site, like the development at Wood Street corner and so much more, this deal is giving land that was either public or a semi public service over to a multinational property comapny.

Why is there scandal surrounding the planning department? Why is planning so controversial....ask yourself.
This is not the civic developments of housing and leisure of the past where planning considered work, rest and play. THIS IS TO MAKE MONEY OUT OF LAND................
.
And it won't end until ordinary people stand against the Big Three political parties that have allowed this to happen. TUSC.
The average "affordable rent" stands at 80% of market rents. Market rents in this area average at £1,200 a month. This is a land deal for a property company for property speculation. Boris/ IDS, Stella and Robbins for that matter all support this kind of developmen, they have for years. Like the development beside the tube, like the proposal for the arcade site, like the development at Wood Street corner and so much more, this deal is giving land that was either public or a semi public service over to a multinational property comapny. Why is there scandal surrounding the planning department? Why is planning so controversial....ask yourself. This is not the civic developments of housing and leisure of the past where planning considered work, rest and play. THIS IS TO MAKE MONEY OUT OF LAND................ . And it won't end until ordinary people stand against the Big Three political parties that have allowed this to happen. TUSC. Nancy Taaffe
  • Score: 0

1:43pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

Techno3 wrote:
Cornbeefur wrote:
waltham wrote:
well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !!

if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !!
The units will be let to people needing housing and who have no interest in watching dogs chasing a toy hare around a track, gambling money they cannot afford to lose.

If the rents are too high they will receive Housing benefit through their entitlements.

The extra people will boost the economy locally.

The Track had its days which were great fun. Like all good things, they come to an end ultimately.

Why are you saying that I should 'foot the bill?'

I am not involved in anything there.
Why do you care so much about things that do not directly concern you Cornbeefur? You said the other day you live in Marylebone.
What is where I live got anything to do with any concerns that I have?

I am a Taxpayer. I pay an enormous amount of Tax to Waltham Forest, Redbridge, Newham, and several other Boroughs around the UK.

As such, I feel that I am entitled to an opinion as to what is happening with my money.

I have visited The Stow on numerous occasions over the years and would imagine that many of those who now cry because of its demise wish they had, had the enjoyment when it was trading.

When the Closure was announced a few years ago, the place started to get busy and in the final weeks the place was jam packed.

Shame that the place did not get the support beforehand which led it to fold.

Exactly what happened to the Granada, although many will try and spin another yarn about being sold above its value and so on. In this case this 'Pension Scheme' tale is misunderstood. The Chandlers mitigated their Tax Liabilities for all the shareholders. Perfectly legal and above board.

Pickles and Boris are best of mates, he will not overturn anything.

People are just trying to polish a Richard the Third in both cases.

Prolonging the agony of losing them forever.
[quote][p][bold]Techno3[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]waltham[/bold] wrote: well you foot the 22 million loss for the tax payer then !! if your OK with a registered social landlord offering no Social rent and the affordable 24 units costing you nearly a million each !![/p][/quote]The units will be let to people needing housing and who have no interest in watching dogs chasing a toy hare around a track, gambling money they cannot afford to lose. If the rents are too high they will receive Housing benefit through their entitlements. The extra people will boost the economy locally. The Track had its days which were great fun. Like all good things, they come to an end ultimately. Why are you saying that I should 'foot the bill?' I am not involved in anything there.[/p][/quote]Why do you care so much about things that do not directly concern you Cornbeefur? You said the other day you live in Marylebone.[/p][/quote]What is where I live got anything to do with any concerns that I have? I am a Taxpayer. I pay an enormous amount of Tax to Waltham Forest, Redbridge, Newham, and several other Boroughs around the UK. As such, I feel that I am entitled to an opinion as to what is happening with my money. I have visited The Stow on numerous occasions over the years and would imagine that many of those who now cry because of its demise wish they had, had the enjoyment when it was trading. When the Closure was announced a few years ago, the place started to get busy and in the final weeks the place was jam packed. Shame that the place did not get the support beforehand which led it to fold. Exactly what happened to the Granada, although many will try and spin another yarn about being sold above its value and so on. In this case this 'Pension Scheme' tale is misunderstood. The Chandlers mitigated their Tax Liabilities for all the shareholders. Perfectly legal and above board. Pickles and Boris are best of mates, he will not overturn anything. People are just trying to polish a Richard the Third in both cases. Prolonging the agony of losing them forever. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

1:59pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Alan_1976 says...

Well that's made things easier.

"Exactly what happened to the Granada, although many will try and spin another yarn about being sold above its value and so on."

In Cornbeefur's world documented facts that are easily available are "yarns".

http://www.guardian-
series.co.uk/your_lo
cal_areas/9959162.WA
LTHAMSTOW__Date_set_
for_EMD_public_inqui
ry/

That should save us a trip down his fantasy world. Safe to say that I for one will assume every item Cornbeefur states is as reliable as a Chocolate Fireman.
Well that's made things easier. "Exactly what happened to the Granada, although many will try and spin another yarn about being sold above its value and so on." In Cornbeefur's world documented facts that are easily available are "yarns". http://www.guardian- series.co.uk/your_lo cal_areas/9959162.WA LTHAMSTOW__Date_set_ for_EMD_public_inqui ry/ That should save us a trip down his fantasy world. Safe to say that I for one will assume every item Cornbeefur states is as reliable as a Chocolate Fireman. Alan_1976
  • Score: 0

2:02pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Alan_1976 says...

Well that's made things easier.

"Exactly what happened to the Granada, although many will try and spin another yarn about being sold above its value and so on."

In Cornbeefur's world documented facts that are easily available are "yarns".

http://www.guardian-
series.co.uk/your_lo
cal_areas/9959162.WA
LTHAMSTOW__Date_set_
for_EMD_public_inqui
ry/

That should save us a trip down his fantasy world. Safe to say that I for one will assume every item Cornbeefur states is as reliable as a Chocolate Fireman.
Well that's made things easier. "Exactly what happened to the Granada, although many will try and spin another yarn about being sold above its value and so on." In Cornbeefur's world documented facts that are easily available are "yarns". http://www.guardian- series.co.uk/your_lo cal_areas/9959162.WA LTHAMSTOW__Date_set_ for_EMD_public_inqui ry/ That should save us a trip down his fantasy world. Safe to say that I for one will assume every item Cornbeefur states is as reliable as a Chocolate Fireman. Alan_1976
  • Score: 0

2:10pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

Alan_1976 wrote:
Well that's made things easier.

"Exactly what happened to the Granada, although many will try and spin another yarn about being sold above its value and so on."

In Cornbeefur's world documented facts that are easily available are "yarns".

http://www.guardian-

series.co.uk/your_lo

cal_areas/9959162.WA

LTHAMSTOW__Date_set_

for_EMD_public_inqui

ry/

That should save us a trip down his fantasy world. Safe to say that I for one will assume every item Cornbeefur states is as reliable as a Chocolate Fireman.
Only press the button once Sir. Be patient.

Market Forces dictate what things sell for, who wants it the most.

The Council dragged their heels, could have done more, had their eye off the ball as usual and were essentially complicit in the mess that followed.

They do not care about the Boroughs Assets, let things fall from their grip and control and then try to recover.

Far from fantasy, this is the reality, not the Cranberry Tinted Spectacle vision ahead.

People must stop trying to polish the Richard the Third and face up to the situation and move on.

Cinema at the Arcade Site is the way forward to cater for all the new people who will move to the Flats within the Arcade and Stow.

They are keeping the Façade as a reminder for all those who never supported the place as a result of which, led to the downfall .
[quote][p][bold]Alan_1976[/bold] wrote: Well that's made things easier. "Exactly what happened to the Granada, although many will try and spin another yarn about being sold above its value and so on." In Cornbeefur's world documented facts that are easily available are "yarns". http://www.guardian- series.co.uk/your_lo cal_areas/9959162.WA LTHAMSTOW__Date_set_ for_EMD_public_inqui ry/ That should save us a trip down his fantasy world. Safe to say that I for one will assume every item Cornbeefur states is as reliable as a Chocolate Fireman.[/p][/quote]Only press the button once Sir. Be patient. Market Forces dictate what things sell for, who wants it the most. The Council dragged their heels, could have done more, had their eye off the ball as usual and were essentially complicit in the mess that followed. They do not care about the Boroughs Assets, let things fall from their grip and control and then try to recover. Far from fantasy, this is the reality, not the Cranberry Tinted Spectacle vision ahead. People must stop trying to polish the Richard the Third and face up to the situation and move on. Cinema at the Arcade Site is the way forward to cater for all the new people who will move to the Flats within the Arcade and Stow. They are keeping the Façade as a reminder for all those who never supported the place as a result of which, led to the downfall . Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

2:19pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Alan_1976 says...

Ah yes ignore the facts again. Many words little substance.
Ah yes ignore the facts again. Many words little substance. Alan_1976
  • Score: 0

2:33pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Stow Residents/Community Association says...

To quote Boris Johnson who in 2010 said “I urge the owners of Walthamstow Stadium to take full consideration of the needs and wishes of local people”

There is disappointment that his decision did not take into full consideration the needs and wishes of local people or their concerns and fears.

There are local residents who want to continue and both Judicial Review and referral to the Secretary of State are options being looked into.
To quote Boris Johnson who in 2010 said “I urge the owners of Walthamstow Stadium to take full consideration of the needs and wishes of local people” There is disappointment that his decision did not take into full consideration the needs and wishes of local people or their concerns and fears. There are local residents who want to continue and both Judicial Review and referral to the Secretary of State are options being looked into. Stow Residents/Community Association
  • Score: 0

2:38pm Thu 1 Nov 12

sensibility says...

Didnt Eric Pickles deal with the site on the billet road. The density in that was lower than that proposed on Walthamstow Stadium.

Surely then he doesnt have a choice but to deal with the Stadium site?

Or is it one rule for one and a different rule for Walthamstow stadium?
Didnt Eric Pickles deal with the site on the billet road. The density in that was lower than that proposed on Walthamstow Stadium. Surely then he doesnt have a choice but to deal with the Stadium site? Or is it one rule for one and a different rule for Walthamstow stadium? sensibility
  • Score: 0

4:37pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Don't Give Up says...

According to an article in today's Racing Post, Iain Duncan Smith will be discussing the situation of a review with Mr Pickles tomorrow. It also states how disappointed he is regarding the Mayors decision to allow the application to proceed.
What is essential is for everyone who is against L&Q's proposal to communicate in writing to Mr Pickles their objections. INDIVIDUAL LETTERS, EMAILS OR FAX'S CARRY MUCH MORE WEIGHT THAN PETITIONS.
According to an article in today's Racing Post, Iain Duncan Smith will be discussing the situation of a review with Mr Pickles tomorrow. It also states how disappointed he is regarding the Mayors decision to allow the application to proceed. What is essential is for everyone who is against L&Q's proposal to communicate in writing to Mr Pickles their objections. INDIVIDUAL LETTERS, EMAILS OR FAX'S CARRY MUCH MORE WEIGHT THAN PETITIONS. Don't Give Up
  • Score: 0

4:38pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Sam Hain says...

I suggest we all wait and see, please don't give Cornbeefur any more encouragement to mention those bloody cranberry tinted specatcles!.
I suggest we all wait and see, please don't give Cornbeefur any more encouragement to mention those bloody cranberry tinted specatcles!. Sam Hain
  • Score: 0

7:19pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Ian RS2000 says...

Cant wait till L&Q start building on it .
Cant wait till L&Q start building on it . Ian RS2000
  • Score: 0

9:57pm Thu 1 Nov 12

eagleeyes says...

Boris " You could,nt run a bath " old chap .
Boris " You could,nt run a bath " old chap . eagleeyes
  • Score: 0

11:52pm Thu 1 Nov 12

Stow Residents/Community Association says...

The letter from Mayor Boris Johnson and accompanying documents are now available on our website for all to read

http://stowresidents
.btck.co.uk/News
The letter from Mayor Boris Johnson and accompanying documents are now available on our website for all to read http://stowresidents .btck.co.uk/News Stow Residents/Community Association
  • Score: 0

9:07am Fri 2 Nov 12

bullyboy says...

Boris is as much use as a ash tray on a motorbike F------ USLESS WE WILL FIGHT TO SAVE OUR WONDERFULL TRACK WHATEVER IT TAKES HAVE SOME GUTS PICKLES AND THROW THESE L@Q PARISITES IN THE BIN BORIS DOES NOT LIVE HERE WE DO HES EVEN GONE AGAINST HIS OWN PARTY A--- HOLE CANNOT BE TRUSTED
Boris is as much use as a ash tray on a motorbike F------ USLESS WE WILL FIGHT TO SAVE OUR WONDERFULL TRACK WHATEVER IT TAKES HAVE SOME GUTS PICKLES AND THROW THESE L@Q PARISITES IN THE BIN BORIS DOES NOT LIVE HERE WE DO HES EVEN GONE AGAINST HIS OWN PARTY A--- HOLE CANNOT BE TRUSTED bullyboy
  • Score: 0

11:00am Fri 2 Nov 12

Techno3 says...

bullyboy wrote:
Boris is as much use as a ash tray on a motorbike F------ USLESS WE WILL FIGHT TO SAVE OUR WONDERFULL TRACK WHATEVER IT TAKES HAVE SOME GUTS PICKLES AND THROW THESE L@Q PARISITES IN THE BIN BORIS DOES NOT LIVE HERE WE DO HES EVEN GONE AGAINST HIS OWN PARTY A--- HOLE CANNOT BE TRUSTED
Using capitals rarely helps convey the message intended.
[quote][p][bold]bullyboy[/bold] wrote: Boris is as much use as a ash tray on a motorbike F------ USLESS WE WILL FIGHT TO SAVE OUR WONDERFULL TRACK WHATEVER IT TAKES HAVE SOME GUTS PICKLES AND THROW THESE L@Q PARISITES IN THE BIN BORIS DOES NOT LIVE HERE WE DO HES EVEN GONE AGAINST HIS OWN PARTY A--- HOLE CANNOT BE TRUSTED[/p][/quote]Using capitals rarely helps convey the message intended. Techno3
  • Score: 0

11:18am Fri 2 Nov 12

Sam Hain says...

It does perhaps explain the choice of monicker, though, Techno3.
It does perhaps explain the choice of monicker, though, Techno3. Sam Hain
  • Score: 0

12:17pm Fri 2 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

Sam Hain wrote:
It does perhaps explain the choice of monicker, though, Techno3.
HAHAHAHAHA

(Sorry I have not conveyed my intended message)!

I did not find it funny at all.
[quote][p][bold]Sam Hain[/bold] wrote: It does perhaps explain the choice of monicker, though, Techno3.[/p][/quote]HAHAHAHAHA (Sorry I have not conveyed my intended message)! I did not find it funny at all. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

12:22pm Fri 2 Nov 12

Walthamster says...

It's worth continuing the fight for the Stow. Best of luck to the campaign. And write a letter or email, everyone!

eric.pickles@communi
ties.gsi.gov.uk

All the information is at
http://saveourstow.w
ordpress.com
It's worth continuing the fight for the Stow. Best of luck to the campaign. And write a letter or email, everyone! eric.pickles@communi ties.gsi.gov.uk All the information is at http://saveourstow.w ordpress.com Walthamster
  • Score: 0

6:25pm Fri 2 Nov 12

Isaythat says...

SOS protest:-

Date: Saturday 10th November 1pm
Venue: Walthamstow Greyhound Stadium”
SOS protest:- Date: Saturday 10th November 1pm Venue: Walthamstow Greyhound Stadium” Isaythat
  • Score: 0

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