Women robbed at knifepoint as police warn of burglary 'spike'

First published in Waltham Forest East London and West Essex Guardian Series: Photograph of the Author by , Senior reporter

TWO women were robbed at knifepoint in their home - as police warn of a "spike" in burglaries this week.

Police say three men broke in through the front door of the house in Badlis Road, near Lloyd Park in Walthamstow, just after 7.30pm on Wednesday (November 7).

When they discovered the two ladies, aged 41 and 60, sitting in a bedroom they threatened them with a large knife before ransacking the room.

The trio then searched the rest of the house and made off on foot towards Winns Terrace after stealing a laptop and mobile phone with an estimated value of £500.

It is believed that they were dropped off and picked up by a fourth man, described as Asian, who was in a black getaway car at the junction with Carr Road.

The ward's Safer Neighbourhood Team (SNT) say there have been seven burglaries reported to them in the Chapel End area in the last 12 weeks.

In the 12 months to September burglaries are down 12 per cent on last year in Waltham Forest but a Met spokeswoman said there had been a "spike" in incidents this week.

It includes 11 burglaries in the last 24 hours, with most break-ins through back doors during daylight hours.

Police have released descriptions of the suspects wanted in connection with the Badlis Road incident.

The first man is described as Asian and aged between 20 to 25-years-old, who is approximately six feet tall and of a slim build.

He was wearing a jacket with a hood and dark coloured gloves.

The second man is said to be a black man aged around 20-years-old with a stocky build.

He was wearing a brown knee length jacket and dark gloves.

The third suspect is described only as a black man.

A Met spokeswoman said: "A number of witnesses have come forward but we would ask that anyone with information about this incident contacts Waltham Forest Police on 101.

"Or to remain anonymous call Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111."

No arrests have been made.

Comments (66)

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5:09pm Fri 9 Nov 12

SpursSupporter1 says...

Even if they get caught theyl just get the usual slap on the wrist a joke the judicial system
Even if they get caught theyl just get the usual slap on the wrist a joke the judicial system SpursSupporter1
  • Score: 0

5:44pm Fri 9 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

The Police Station opposite looked up and threw the key in the sea a few weeks ago whilst Walthamstow has an array of unsolved Murders, violent assaults, vicious robberies and rapes. The minor crime like the odd burglary gets written off, knife carriers and drug dealers often get a caution.

Meanwhile up in the village, those with odd hats, courdroys, green teeth and Cranberry Tinted Spectacles wander along thrilled that despite not being able to afford Islington or Marylebone, they have 'made it'.
The Police Station opposite looked up and threw the key in the sea a few weeks ago whilst Walthamstow has an array of unsolved Murders, violent assaults, vicious robberies and rapes. The minor crime like the odd burglary gets written off, knife carriers and drug dealers often get a caution. Meanwhile up in the village, those with odd hats, courdroys, green teeth and Cranberry Tinted Spectacles wander along thrilled that despite not being able to afford Islington or Marylebone, they have 'made it'. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

6:12pm Fri 9 Nov 12

ajay567 says...

Cornbeefur wrote:
The Police Station opposite looked up and threw the key in the sea a few weeks ago whilst Walthamstow has an array of unsolved Murders, violent assaults, vicious robberies and rapes. The minor crime like the odd burglary gets written off, knife carriers and drug dealers often get a caution.

Meanwhile up in the village, those with odd hats, courdroys, green teeth and Cranberry Tinted Spectacles wander along thrilled that despite not being able to afford Islington or Marylebone, they have 'made it'.
You and your Cranberry Tinted Spectacles why don't you change the record ?
[quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: The Police Station opposite looked up and threw the key in the sea a few weeks ago whilst Walthamstow has an array of unsolved Murders, violent assaults, vicious robberies and rapes. The minor crime like the odd burglary gets written off, knife carriers and drug dealers often get a caution. Meanwhile up in the village, those with odd hats, courdroys, green teeth and Cranberry Tinted Spectacles wander along thrilled that despite not being able to afford Islington or Marylebone, they have 'made it'.[/p][/quote]You and your Cranberry Tinted Spectacles why don't you change the record ? ajay567
  • Score: 0

6:17pm Fri 9 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

ajay567 wrote:
Cornbeefur wrote:
The Police Station opposite looked up and threw the key in the sea a few weeks ago whilst Walthamstow has an array of unsolved Murders, violent assaults, vicious robberies and rapes. The minor crime like the odd burglary gets written off, knife carriers and drug dealers often get a caution.

Meanwhile up in the village, those with odd hats, courdroys, green teeth and Cranberry Tinted Spectacles wander along thrilled that despite not being able to afford Islington or Marylebone, they have 'made it'.
You and your Cranberry Tinted Spectacles why don't you change the record ?
Sometimes a record needs a jolt as do the Police to get their rears in gear to go out on the streets and prevent crime.

It is all very well to bury your head in the dand and wear a pair of Cranberry Tinted Spectacles but there are real crooks lurking the streets.
[quote][p][bold]ajay567[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: The Police Station opposite looked up and threw the key in the sea a few weeks ago whilst Walthamstow has an array of unsolved Murders, violent assaults, vicious robberies and rapes. The minor crime like the odd burglary gets written off, knife carriers and drug dealers often get a caution. Meanwhile up in the village, those with odd hats, courdroys, green teeth and Cranberry Tinted Spectacles wander along thrilled that despite not being able to afford Islington or Marylebone, they have 'made it'.[/p][/quote]You and your Cranberry Tinted Spectacles why don't you change the record ?[/p][/quote]Sometimes a record needs a jolt as do the Police to get their rears in gear to go out on the streets and prevent crime. It is all very well to bury your head in the dand and wear a pair of Cranberry Tinted Spectacles but there are real crooks lurking the streets. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

7:44pm Fri 9 Nov 12

Villagelife says...

Cornbeefur you are clearly retarded. I hope they don't release back into the community anytime soon as police clearly have enough on their hands without having to deal with rounding up local the tragically inadequates like you.
Cornbeefur you are clearly retarded. I hope they don't release back into the community anytime soon as police clearly have enough on their hands without having to deal with rounding up local the tragically inadequates like you. Villagelife
  • Score: 0

7:53pm Fri 9 Nov 12

Alan_1976 says...

Cornbeefur wrote:
ajay567 wrote:
Cornbeefur wrote:
The Police Station opposite looked up and threw the key in the sea a few weeks ago whilst Walthamstow has an array of unsolved Murders, violent assaults, vicious robberies and rapes. The minor crime like the odd burglary gets written off, knife carriers and drug dealers often get a caution.

Meanwhile up in the village, those with odd hats, courdroys, green teeth and Cranberry Tinted Spectacles wander along thrilled that despite not being able to afford Islington or Marylebone, they have 'made it'.
You and your Cranberry Tinted Spectacles why don't you change the record ?
Sometimes a record needs a jolt as do the Police to get their rears in gear to go out on the streets and prevent crime.

It is all very well to bury your head in the dand and wear a pair of Cranberry Tinted Spectacles but there are real crooks lurking the streets.
Marylebone called. They want their village idiot back. Described as being

obsessed with rehashing the same tired phrases,
lacking in any social skills or etiquette,
bizarrely obsessed with areas of London in which he does not reside,
habitual name changer,
persistent deliberate mis-speller of names,
having a worrying obsession with commenting on stories about children, in particular,
a poor understanding of the non-opaqueness of cranberry glassware
and a strange obsession with belittling an area of Walthamstow.

Answers to the name of Cornbeefur (currently).

Warnings have been issued not to approach as he is often delusional and easily confused.
[quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ajay567[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: The Police Station opposite looked up and threw the key in the sea a few weeks ago whilst Walthamstow has an array of unsolved Murders, violent assaults, vicious robberies and rapes. The minor crime like the odd burglary gets written off, knife carriers and drug dealers often get a caution. Meanwhile up in the village, those with odd hats, courdroys, green teeth and Cranberry Tinted Spectacles wander along thrilled that despite not being able to afford Islington or Marylebone, they have 'made it'.[/p][/quote]You and your Cranberry Tinted Spectacles why don't you change the record ?[/p][/quote]Sometimes a record needs a jolt as do the Police to get their rears in gear to go out on the streets and prevent crime. It is all very well to bury your head in the dand and wear a pair of Cranberry Tinted Spectacles but there are real crooks lurking the streets.[/p][/quote]Marylebone called. They want their village idiot back. Described as being obsessed with rehashing the same tired phrases, lacking in any social skills or etiquette, bizarrely obsessed with areas of London in which he does not reside, habitual name changer, persistent deliberate mis-speller of names, having a worrying obsession with commenting on stories about children, in particular, a poor understanding of the non-opaqueness of cranberry glassware and a strange obsession with belittling an area of Walthamstow. Answers to the name of Cornbeefur (currently). Warnings have been issued not to approach as he is often delusional and easily confused. Alan_1976
  • Score: 0

8:54pm Fri 9 Nov 12

Angel786 says...

Villagelife wrote:
Cornbeefur you are clearly retarded. I hope they don't release back into the community anytime soon as police clearly have enough on their hands without having to deal with rounding up local the tragically inadequates like you.
I find this offensive to genuine retarded people.

Cornbeefur deserves a classification of his own.

Angel786
[quote][p][bold]Villagelife[/bold] wrote: Cornbeefur you are clearly retarded. I hope they don't release back into the community anytime soon as police clearly have enough on their hands without having to deal with rounding up local the tragically inadequates like you.[/p][/quote]I find this offensive to genuine retarded people. Cornbeefur deserves a classification of his own. Angel786 Angel786
  • Score: 0

11:58pm Fri 9 Nov 12

W F B says...

Anyone who denies crime hasn't got worse over the last 15 years has never lived in Walthamstow before (97) Cornbeefur is not the troll some people would have him portrayed as..
Anyone who denies crime hasn't got worse over the last 15 years has never lived in Walthamstow before (97) Cornbeefur is not the troll some people would have him portrayed as.. W F B
  • Score: 0

6:25am Sat 10 Nov 12

E17_er says...

Anyone who writes guff about green teeth is an idiot
Anyone who writes guff about green teeth is an idiot E17_er
  • Score: 0

7:16am Sat 10 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

W F B wrote:
Anyone who denies crime hasn't got worse over the last 15 years has never lived in Walthamstow before (97) Cornbeefur is not the troll some people would have him portrayed as..
Unfortunately, some people would rather ignore the issue of unsolved murders, rapes, robberies and vicious assaults and walk around wearing Cranberry Tinted Spectacles.

Some people resort to verbal attacks on the message deliverer, I mean what kind of comment is that, what Village Life makes about 'Retarded People' How offensive to those who have children and relations with Learning Difficulties and no contribution to the story thread.

The usual 'nothing' from E17 just insults again. His obsession with me is truly bizarre, even referring people to a Website set up in my Honour.
[quote][p][bold]W F B[/bold] wrote: Anyone who denies crime hasn't got worse over the last 15 years has never lived in Walthamstow before (97) Cornbeefur is not the troll some people would have him portrayed as..[/p][/quote]Unfortunately, some people would rather ignore the issue of unsolved murders, rapes, robberies and vicious assaults and walk around wearing Cranberry Tinted Spectacles. Some people resort to verbal attacks on the message deliverer, I mean what kind of comment is that, what Village Life makes about 'Retarded People' How offensive to those who have children and relations with Learning Difficulties and no contribution to the story thread. The usual 'nothing' from E17 just insults again. His obsession with me is truly bizarre, even referring people to a Website set up in my Honour. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

7:32am Sat 10 Nov 12

Alan_1976 says...

Cornbeefur wrote:
W F B wrote:
Anyone who denies crime hasn't got worse over the last 15 years has never lived in Walthamstow before (97) Cornbeefur is not the troll some people would have him portrayed as..
Unfortunately, some people would rather ignore the issue of unsolved murders, rapes, robberies and vicious assaults and walk around wearing Cranberry Tinted Spectacles.

Some people resort to verbal attacks on the message deliverer, I mean what kind of comment is that, what Village Life makes about 'Retarded People' How offensive to those who have children and relations with Learning Difficulties and no contribution to the story thread.

The usual 'nothing' from E17 just insults again. His obsession with me is truly bizarre, even referring people to a Website set up in my Honour.
I have to agree with him. You are an idiot. Far worse an offensive idiot and pathological liar.

You seem to take particular umbrage with E17er. All I can see is him answering your nothing question and then pointing out that anyone who refers to people walking around with green teeth is clearly an idiot. Those aren't insults. Those are statements of fact.

You would clearly rather not stick to the issues at hand but use these forums as an opportunity to insult and antagonise.

As to the website in your "honour". Just goes to confirm your very very warped set of values if that is considered an honour.
[quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]W F B[/bold] wrote: Anyone who denies crime hasn't got worse over the last 15 years has never lived in Walthamstow before (97) Cornbeefur is not the troll some people would have him portrayed as..[/p][/quote]Unfortunately, some people would rather ignore the issue of unsolved murders, rapes, robberies and vicious assaults and walk around wearing Cranberry Tinted Spectacles. Some people resort to verbal attacks on the message deliverer, I mean what kind of comment is that, what Village Life makes about 'Retarded People' How offensive to those who have children and relations with Learning Difficulties and no contribution to the story thread. The usual 'nothing' from E17 just insults again. His obsession with me is truly bizarre, even referring people to a Website set up in my Honour.[/p][/quote]I have to agree with him. You are an idiot. Far worse an offensive idiot and pathological liar. You seem to take particular umbrage with E17er. All I can see is him answering your nothing question and then pointing out that anyone who refers to people walking around with green teeth is clearly an idiot. Those aren't insults. Those are statements of fact. You would clearly rather not stick to the issues at hand but use these forums as an opportunity to insult and antagonise. As to the website in your "honour". Just goes to confirm your very very warped set of values if that is considered an honour. Alan_1976
  • Score: 0

7:48am Sat 10 Nov 12

E17_er says...

Cornbeefur perhaps you'd prefer me to refer people to the articles on here were you insult local people particularly the more needy in the community in a regular basis.

You may seem to equate living in Marylebone as "making it". From your ramblings on here I think the petrol fumes and general city centre pollution have scrambled your values.
Cornbeefur perhaps you'd prefer me to refer people to the articles on here were you insult local people particularly the more needy in the community in a regular basis. You may seem to equate living in Marylebone as "making it". From your ramblings on here I think the petrol fumes and general city centre pollution have scrambled your values. E17_er
  • Score: 0

7:58am Sat 10 Nov 12

Helen, Walthamstow says...

W F B wrote:
Anyone who denies crime hasn't got worse over the last 15 years has never lived in Walthamstow before (97) Cornbeefur is not the troll some people would have him portrayed as..
Yes, there has been a big rise in certain types of crime, particularly gang-related incidents and attacks on young men.

Other types of crime have actually reduced over the years or occur in no greater numbers.

Burglary has reduced, but the women in the report above must have the sympathy of all of us. They have been the victims of a planned and carefully organised armed attack and we hope that by alerting the public and releasing descriptions, the police will catch the b*****ds.

What makes cornbeefur's comments so unacceptable is his blanket repetitive verbal attacks on the police plus his constant negative portrayal of the streets of Waltham Forest.

Worst of all, though, are his absurd flights into fantasy, his offensive remarks about other posters and - even worse - people featured in reports, and the injured innocence he adopts when he has inflamed enough people.

He's a troll because he deliberately incites anger with his lorid and repetitive remarks and diverts what are quite often serious online discussions about serious matters.
[quote][p][bold]W F B[/bold] wrote: Anyone who denies crime hasn't got worse over the last 15 years has never lived in Walthamstow before (97) Cornbeefur is not the troll some people would have him portrayed as..[/p][/quote]Yes, there has been a big rise in certain types of crime, particularly gang-related incidents and attacks on young men. Other types of crime have actually reduced over the years or occur in no greater numbers. Burglary has reduced, but the women in the report above must have the sympathy of all of us. They have been the victims of a planned and carefully organised armed attack and we hope that by alerting the public and releasing descriptions, the police will catch the b*****ds. What makes cornbeefur's comments so unacceptable is his blanket repetitive verbal attacks on the police plus his constant negative portrayal of the streets of Waltham Forest. Worst of all, though, are his absurd flights into fantasy, his offensive remarks about other posters and - even worse - people featured in reports, and the injured innocence he adopts when he has inflamed enough people. He's a troll because he deliberately incites anger with his lorid and repetitive remarks and diverts what are quite often serious online discussions about serious matters. Helen, Walthamstow
  • Score: 0

8:10am Sat 10 Nov 12

E17_er says...

Helen, Walthamstow wrote:
W F B wrote:
Anyone who denies crime hasn't got worse over the last 15 years has never lived in Walthamstow before (97) Cornbeefur is not the troll some people would have him portrayed as..
Yes, there has been a big rise in certain types of crime, particularly gang-related incidents and attacks on young men.

Other types of crime have actually reduced over the years or occur in no greater numbers.

Burglary has reduced, but the women in the report above must have the sympathy of all of us. They have been the victims of a planned and carefully organised armed attack and we hope that by alerting the public and releasing descriptions, the police will catch the b*****ds.

What makes cornbeefur's comments so unacceptable is his blanket repetitive verbal attacks on the police plus his constant negative portrayal of the streets of Waltham Forest.

Worst of all, though, are his absurd flights into fantasy, his offensive remarks about other posters and - even worse - people featured in reports, and the injured innocence he adopts when he has inflamed enough people.

He's a troll because he deliberately incites anger with his lorid and repetitive remarks and diverts what are quite often serious online discussions about serious matters.
Indeed if you read the comments not one single commenter says anything about the level of crime. They are all responding to his Cranberry diatribe.

That is indeed the pathology of a troll
[quote][p][bold]Helen, Walthamstow[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]W F B[/bold] wrote: Anyone who denies crime hasn't got worse over the last 15 years has never lived in Walthamstow before (97) Cornbeefur is not the troll some people would have him portrayed as..[/p][/quote]Yes, there has been a big rise in certain types of crime, particularly gang-related incidents and attacks on young men. Other types of crime have actually reduced over the years or occur in no greater numbers. Burglary has reduced, but the women in the report above must have the sympathy of all of us. They have been the victims of a planned and carefully organised armed attack and we hope that by alerting the public and releasing descriptions, the police will catch the b*****ds. What makes cornbeefur's comments so unacceptable is his blanket repetitive verbal attacks on the police plus his constant negative portrayal of the streets of Waltham Forest. Worst of all, though, are his absurd flights into fantasy, his offensive remarks about other posters and - even worse - people featured in reports, and the injured innocence he adopts when he has inflamed enough people. He's a troll because he deliberately incites anger with his lorid and repetitive remarks and diverts what are quite often serious online discussions about serious matters.[/p][/quote]Indeed if you read the comments not one single commenter says anything about the level of crime. They are all responding to his Cranberry diatribe. That is indeed the pathology of a troll E17_er
  • Score: 0

9:13am Sat 10 Nov 12

Sam Hain says...

Such a pity that this thread has been hijacked by Cornbeefur, who, despite his occasional flashes of lucidity, always seems to become the focus of comment rather than the story itself. So, back to the story. As someone caught up in a very seroius recently I cannot speak too highly for the police's response. However, when I was taken to give a witness statement I saw the pressure under which the police are working. Even on a weekday evening, reports of serious assaults etc kept coming in and the team were patently struggling to respond. They were obviously short-staffed and the officer interviewing me not only went an hour over her shift-end to finish with me but gave me a lift home before returning to the compound to drop off the car. She will have worked two hours extra but, she told me, as the overtime wasn't agreed in advance (how could it have been?) she might not get paid for it. And she was back on duty again the following morning! Our coppers are lions led by donkeys. My interview took place in the famous 'back office', whose functions politicans always say can be cut back to save money. I tell you all, when you've been in the 'back office' and see the pressure they're under, the glib assurances that this area of work can be cut without affecting 'frontline' services is a sick joke. So please, Cornbeefur, do us all a favour and stuff the Cranberry Tinted Spectacles where the sun don't shine and engage with the real world, or slink away and shut the f*** up!
Such a pity that this thread has been hijacked by Cornbeefur, who, despite his occasional flashes of lucidity, always seems to become the focus of comment rather than the story itself. So, back to the story. As someone caught up in a very seroius recently I cannot speak too highly for the police's response. However, when I was taken to give a witness statement I saw the pressure under which the police are working. Even on a weekday evening, reports of serious assaults etc kept coming in and the team were patently struggling to respond. They were obviously short-staffed and the officer interviewing me not only went an hour over her shift-end to finish with me but gave me a lift home before returning to the compound to drop off the car. She will have worked two hours extra but, she told me, as the overtime wasn't agreed in advance (how could it have been?) she might not get paid for it. And she was back on duty again the following morning! Our coppers are lions led by donkeys. My interview took place in the famous 'back office', whose functions politicans always say can be cut back to save money. I tell you all, when you've been in the 'back office' and see the pressure they're under, the glib assurances that this area of work can be cut without affecting 'frontline' services is a sick joke. So please, Cornbeefur, do us all a favour and stuff the Cranberry Tinted Spectacles where the sun don't shine and engage with the real world, or slink away and shut the f*** up! Sam Hain
  • Score: 0

9:15am Sat 10 Nov 12

Sam Hain says...

PS: the missing word is 'assault' by the way.
PS: the missing word is 'assault' by the way. Sam Hain
  • Score: 0

9:20am Sat 10 Nov 12

Sam Hain says...

PPS: Oh, and by the time I got to the Custody Suite to give my statement the alleged assailant had been arrested and was being questioned. So don't tell me the police don't give a good service, even under incredible and increasing pressure.
PPS: Oh, and by the time I got to the Custody Suite to give my statement the alleged assailant had been arrested and was being questioned. So don't tell me the police don't give a good service, even under incredible and increasing pressure. Sam Hain
  • Score: 0

9:25am Sat 10 Nov 12

Nairn says...

Please please everyone - DO NOT RESPOND TO ANY OF CORNBEEFUR'S COMMENTS ON ANY ARTICLE/NEWS ITEM ON THIS WEBSITE.

If everyone ignores him and refuses to rise to his provocations then he will not get the attention he so obviously craves.

He will undoubtedly respond to this comment but I will not respond to whatever he says.
Please please everyone - DO NOT RESPOND TO ANY OF CORNBEEFUR'S COMMENTS ON ANY ARTICLE/NEWS ITEM ON THIS WEBSITE. If everyone ignores him and refuses to rise to his provocations then he will not get the attention he so obviously craves. He will undoubtedly respond to this comment but I will not respond to whatever he says. Nairn
  • Score: 0

9:41am Sat 10 Nov 12

Nairn says...

Meanwhile - yes Sam Hain I had a similar experience earlier this year when I went to the Custody Suite in Leytonstone to give a witness statement.

The policeman taking my statement had to leave the room several times as he was covering all the court sessions happening at the time. He explained to me that he had to respond to information requests and urgent court matters on the phone (he was the only one on duty at the time who could do this) as emails etc were not acceptable due to the fact that in the past courts and police stations had been affected by internet problems (eg. area problems where internet services had been disrupted for everyone in the local area - not the internal police/court systems) and vital decisions/informatio
n/instructions had been lost in cyberspace which had led to court cases being delayed/interrupted or going ahead without the correct information. He told me that he had to respond to such phone calls immediately or else risk disciplinary action.

It took almost 3 hrs for me to make my 3 page statement. But, the accused was found guilty so the inconvenience to me was minute in comparison to the pain and suffering other victims of crime the accused would have committed had I not given my statement.

I too saw the pressures the police are under - not just the officer taking my statement - and like you Sam, it certainly opened my eyes as to the reality of the conditions the police work under. I dread to think what it's going to be like when the additional cuts are made.
Meanwhile - yes Sam Hain I had a similar experience earlier this year when I went to the Custody Suite in Leytonstone to give a witness statement. The policeman taking my statement had to leave the room several times as he was covering all the court sessions happening at the time. He explained to me that he had to respond to information requests and urgent court matters on the phone (he was the only one on duty at the time who could do this) as emails etc were not acceptable due to the fact that in the past courts and police stations had been affected by internet problems (eg. area problems where internet services had been disrupted for everyone in the local area - not the internal police/court systems) and vital decisions/informatio n/instructions had been lost in cyberspace which had led to court cases being delayed/interrupted or going ahead without the correct information. He told me that he had to respond to such phone calls immediately or else risk disciplinary action. It took almost 3 hrs for me to make my 3 page statement. But, the accused was found guilty so the inconvenience to me was minute in comparison to the pain and suffering other victims of crime the accused would have committed had I not given my statement. I too saw the pressures the police are under - not just the officer taking my statement - and like you Sam, it certainly opened my eyes as to the reality of the conditions the police work under. I dread to think what it's going to be like when the additional cuts are made. Nairn
  • Score: 0

10:41am Sat 10 Nov 12

Sam Hain says...

Thanks, Nairn. Sorry about my intemperate reaction our mutual friend but his relentless triviality in the face of serious matters caused the red (or is that cranberry) mist to rise momentarily!
Thanks, Nairn. Sorry about my intemperate reaction our mutual friend but his relentless triviality in the face of serious matters caused the red (or is that cranberry) mist to rise momentarily! Sam Hain
  • Score: 0

10:59am Sat 10 Nov 12

Helen, Walthamstow says...

I agree with Sam and Nairn that the police, including the much-derided backroom staff, are doing a good job in the face of huge challenges. We need more, rather than fewer, officers but I think even if the numbers were doubled (and that isn't going to happen) it still wouldn't solve the "problem" of crime.

Policing alone is not the answer. The responsibility lies with the whole of society.

Just consider what needs to be done to reduce the incidence of violent crime by and among young people, most specifically young men, which forms a large part of the statistics.

We need to break up the gangs which are not only crime machines on their own but put peer pressure on other young people to follow their lead. We need to force the courts to dish out the maximum available sentences to anyone caught with a gun, knife or other offensive weapon. We need to have better strategies for dealing with drugs.

Taking one step back, we need to loosen the hold of the celebrity culture which generates the idea that to be a success, all people need is money and fame (or notoriety).

A further step back, we need to ensure that our education system is fit for the purpose of ensuring all children become literate and numerate and are offered cultural alternatives to the pap that is being spoonfed through television, films and pop music. (The majority of people in prison have poor levels of literacy and numeracy).

Take another step back, we need to educate parents (whether lone or in relationships) to promote ethical values, to encourage their children to strive, and even to control their children. (How often have you been in a cafe or shop and seen little children running, shouting, getting under the feet of other customers and generally being a nuisance when the parent at best swears foully at the mini-monsters or at worst ignores them completely? The child learns that s/he can do whatever s/he wants to do without consequences.)

And that's just with reference to youth crime. Elsewhere, consider the example of greedy MPs who saw it as their right to claim huge expenses from the public purse. Consider the television personalities who, if the claims are to be believed, saw nothing wrong with molesting children or women. Consider the characters in soaps who get away with monstrous behaviour.

I could go on and on - but I'm just trying to drive home the point that it is the criminals who are guilty when a crime is committed, not the police, and that our current social mores are moulding people who often have weak personalities to become criminals.

Crime will never go away, but we can all do our bit to help cut it.
I agree with Sam and Nairn that the police, including the much-derided backroom staff, are doing a good job in the face of huge challenges. We need more, rather than fewer, officers but I think even if the numbers were doubled (and that isn't going to happen) it still wouldn't solve the "problem" of crime. Policing alone is not the answer. The responsibility lies with the whole of society. Just consider what needs to be done to reduce the incidence of violent crime by and among young people, most specifically young men, which forms a large part of the statistics. We need to break up the gangs which are not only crime machines on their own but put peer pressure on other young people to follow their lead. We need to force the courts to dish out the maximum available sentences to anyone caught with a gun, knife or other offensive weapon. We need to have better strategies for dealing with drugs. Taking one step back, we need to loosen the hold of the celebrity culture which generates the idea that to be a success, all people need is money and fame (or notoriety). A further step back, we need to ensure that our education system is fit for the purpose of ensuring all children become literate and numerate and are offered cultural alternatives to the pap that is being spoonfed through television, films and pop music. (The majority of people in prison have poor levels of literacy and numeracy). Take another step back, we need to educate parents (whether lone or in relationships) to promote ethical values, to encourage their children to strive, and even to control their children. (How often have you been in a cafe or shop and seen little children running, shouting, getting under the feet of other customers and generally being a nuisance when the parent at best swears foully at the mini-monsters or at worst ignores them completely? The child learns that s/he can do whatever s/he wants to do without consequences.) And that's just with reference to youth crime. Elsewhere, consider the example of greedy MPs who saw it as their right to claim huge expenses from the public purse. Consider the television personalities who, if the claims are to be believed, saw nothing wrong with molesting children or women. Consider the characters in soaps who get away with monstrous behaviour. I could go on and on - but I'm just trying to drive home the point that it is the criminals who are guilty when a crime is committed, not the police, and that our current social mores are moulding people who often have weak personalities to become criminals. Crime will never go away, but we can all do our bit to help cut it. Helen, Walthamstow
  • Score: 0

11:05am Sat 10 Nov 12

SpursSupporter1 says...

Back too the topic????
Back too the topic???? SpursSupporter1
  • Score: 0

11:13am Sat 10 Nov 12

Nairn says...

Wow Helen! Totally agree with all you have written.

You accurately point out the bigger picture and it would be easy to become despondent and just complain about crime and the police all the time.

But, as you say, we can all do our bit to help cut crime, no matter how small we think our contribution in this area is.

Thank you!
Wow Helen! Totally agree with all you have written. You accurately point out the bigger picture and it would be easy to become despondent and just complain about crime and the police all the time. But, as you say, we can all do our bit to help cut crime, no matter how small we think our contribution in this area is. Thank you! Nairn
  • Score: 0

11:56am Sat 10 Nov 12

G_Whiz says...

Crikey! all this whingeing. Going by the stats, Walthamstow loves a bit of crime!

Although Cornbeefur may sound like he is sensationalising things - he's still quite accurate. Sometimes.

Moaning about what he say's is defending the Courts and the Governments poor record in this area.
Must be some kind of brain washing going on!
Crikey! all this whingeing. Going by the stats, Walthamstow loves a bit of crime! Although Cornbeefur may sound like he is sensationalising things - he's still quite accurate. Sometimes. Moaning about what he say's is defending the Courts and the Governments poor record in this area. Must be some kind of brain washing going on! G_Whiz
  • Score: 0

11:58am Sat 10 Nov 12

E17_er says...

G_Whiz wrote:
Crikey! all this whingeing. Going by the stats, Walthamstow loves a bit of crime!

Although Cornbeefur may sound like he is sensationalising things - he's still quite accurate. Sometimes.

Moaning about what he say's is defending the Courts and the Governments poor record in this area.
Must be some kind of brain washing going on!
Highlight a comment where anyone talks about that part of his nonsense.
[quote][p][bold]G_Whiz[/bold] wrote: Crikey! all this whingeing. Going by the stats, Walthamstow loves a bit of crime! Although Cornbeefur may sound like he is sensationalising things - he's still quite accurate. Sometimes. Moaning about what he say's is defending the Courts and the Governments poor record in this area. Must be some kind of brain washing going on![/p][/quote]Highlight a comment where anyone talks about that part of his nonsense. E17_er
  • Score: 0

12:25pm Sat 10 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

Nairn wrote:
Please please everyone - DO NOT RESPOND TO ANY OF CORNBEEFUR'S COMMENTS ON ANY ARTICLE/NEWS ITEM ON THIS WEBSITE.

If everyone ignores him and refuses to rise to his provocations then he will not get the attention he so obviously craves.

He will undoubtedly respond to this comment but I will not respond to whatever he says.
Writing in capital letters does not increase the validity or substance of comments.

If people are happy to live in an area where there are vast amounts of unsolved crimes like Murders, rapes, robberies, violent assaults (including shootings) then this is why violent reported crime will continue to rise.

Policing by consent they say. You will get what you demand from Police resources. All this unsolved crime and on a rainy day are there people out on the street demanding more police and police action to solve and detect crimes? Not at all.

However, go up the road and there are people protesting in the rain (static protest) chanting for dogs to be allowed to run again chasing a toy round and round in a Stadium that has been closed for four years, rather than providing needy housing for people with children.

Nought stranger than folk.

Now if they had a regular protest against lack of Police Action and Police Patrols they may get some response.

The squeakiest wheel always receives the most oil. Up in Woodford (see associated thread) Locals Protest against closure of Woodford Police Station, over a thousand signatures collected.

Here in Walthamstow they shut the local Police Station and not a murmer as they everyone is so dispondent or walking around the Village wearing Cranberry Tinted Glasses and sipping over priced coffee through green teeth, feeling that the 100 yards of Village Walthamstow is like a Suffolk Hamlet.
[quote][p][bold]Nairn[/bold] wrote: Please please everyone - DO NOT RESPOND TO ANY OF CORNBEEFUR'S COMMENTS ON ANY ARTICLE/NEWS ITEM ON THIS WEBSITE. If everyone ignores him and refuses to rise to his provocations then he will not get the attention he so obviously craves. He will undoubtedly respond to this comment but I will not respond to whatever he says.[/p][/quote]Writing in capital letters does not increase the validity or substance of comments. If people are happy to live in an area where there are vast amounts of unsolved crimes like Murders, rapes, robberies, violent assaults (including shootings) then this is why violent reported crime will continue to rise. Policing by consent they say. You will get what you demand from Police resources. All this unsolved crime and on a rainy day are there people out on the street demanding more police and police action to solve and detect crimes? Not at all. However, go up the road and there are people protesting in the rain (static protest) chanting for dogs to be allowed to run again chasing a toy round and round in a Stadium that has been closed for four years, rather than providing needy housing for people with children. Nought stranger than folk. Now if they had a regular protest against lack of Police Action and Police Patrols they may get some response. The squeakiest wheel always receives the most oil. Up in Woodford (see associated thread) Locals Protest against closure of Woodford Police Station, over a thousand signatures collected. Here in Walthamstow they shut the local Police Station and not a murmer as they everyone is so dispondent or walking around the Village wearing Cranberry Tinted Glasses and sipping over priced coffee through green teeth, feeling that the 100 yards of Village Walthamstow is like a Suffolk Hamlet. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

1:24pm Sat 10 Nov 12

E17_er says...

You keep saying here in Walthamstow which is odd as you don't live here.
You keep saying here in Walthamstow which is odd as you don't live here. E17_er
  • Score: 0

1:28pm Sat 10 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

E17_er wrote:
You keep saying here in Walthamstow which is odd as you don't live here.
How on Earth do you know where I live?
[quote][p][bold]E17_er[/bold] wrote: You keep saying here in Walthamstow which is odd as you don't live here.[/p][/quote]How on Earth do you know where I live? Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

1:31pm Sat 10 Nov 12

E17_er says...

The same way everyone else does. Through our mystical magical ability to read. Your wrote it in your comments. Your exact words were "I live in Marylebone".

Your paranoia is alarming.
The same way everyone else does. Through our mystical magical ability to read. Your wrote it in your comments. Your exact words were "I live in Marylebone". Your paranoia is alarming. E17_er
  • Score: 0

1:42pm Sat 10 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

E17_er wrote:
The same way everyone else does. Through our mystical magical ability to read. Your wrote it in your comments. Your exact words were "I live in Marylebone".

Your paranoia is alarming.
Wherever I lay my hat that is my home.

I have a pied–à–terre. Even some people in Walthamstow have one.

All irrelevant to this thread.

Make some suggestions how to get crime reduced or Police numbers up
[quote][p][bold]E17_er[/bold] wrote: The same way everyone else does. Through our mystical magical ability to read. Your wrote it in your comments. Your exact words were "I live in Marylebone". Your paranoia is alarming.[/p][/quote]Wherever I lay my hat that is my home. I have a pied–à–terre. Even some people in Walthamstow have one. All irrelevant to this thread. Make some suggestions how to get crime reduced or Police numbers up Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

2:01pm Sat 10 Nov 12

E17_er says...

Cornbeefur wrote:
E17_er wrote:
The same way everyone else does. Through our mystical magical ability to read. Your wrote it in your comments. Your exact words were "I live in Marylebone".

Your paranoia is alarming.
Wherever I lay my hat that is my home.

I have a pied–à–terre. Even some people in Walthamstow have one.

All irrelevant to this thread.

Make some suggestions how to get crime reduced or Police numbers up
No that is not the same. Your lies find you out and speak to your character
[quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]E17_er[/bold] wrote: The same way everyone else does. Through our mystical magical ability to read. Your wrote it in your comments. Your exact words were "I live in Marylebone". Your paranoia is alarming.[/p][/quote]Wherever I lay my hat that is my home. I have a pied–à–terre. Even some people in Walthamstow have one. All irrelevant to this thread. Make some suggestions how to get crime reduced or Police numbers up[/p][/quote]No that is not the same. Your lies find you out and speak to your character E17_er
  • Score: 0

2:20pm Sat 10 Nov 12

Helen, Walthamstow says...

Cornbeefur wrote:
E17_er wrote:
The same way everyone else does. Through our mystical magical ability to read. Your wrote it in your comments. Your exact words were "I live in Marylebone".

Your paranoia is alarming.
Wherever I lay my hat that is my home.

I have a pied–à–terre. Even some people in Walthamstow have one.

All irrelevant to this thread.

Make some suggestions how to get crime reduced or Police numbers up
I made a some suggestions that might lead to crime reduction.

You probably don't agree but I notice you haven't even attempted to address those suggestions.
[quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]E17_er[/bold] wrote: The same way everyone else does. Through our mystical magical ability to read. Your wrote it in your comments. Your exact words were "I live in Marylebone". Your paranoia is alarming.[/p][/quote]Wherever I lay my hat that is my home. I have a pied–à–terre. Even some people in Walthamstow have one. All irrelevant to this thread. Make some suggestions how to get crime reduced or Police numbers up[/p][/quote]I made a some suggestions that might lead to crime reduction. You probably don't agree but I notice you haven't even attempted to address those suggestions. Helen, Walthamstow
  • Score: 0

6:27pm Sat 10 Nov 12

W F B says...

Easy question Cornbeefur,do you live in walthamstow?
Easy question Cornbeefur,do you live in walthamstow? W F B
  • Score: 0

6:58pm Sat 10 Nov 12

Nairn says...

I don't even bother to read Cornbeerur's posts any more - just scroll and ignore the troll ;-)
I don't even bother to read Cornbeerur's posts any more - just scroll and ignore the troll ;-) Nairn
  • Score: 0

7:27pm Sat 10 Nov 12

E17_er says...

W F B wrote:
Easy question Cornbeefur,do you live in walthamstow?
He's already answered.

"I live in Marylebone now but still have strong ties in Walthamstow and East London."

http://www.guardian-
series.co.uk/your_lo
cal_areas/10015998.B
oris_Johnson_approve
s_Walthamstow_Stadiu
m_housing_plans/

He is about as honest as a three pound coin.
[quote][p][bold]W F B[/bold] wrote: Easy question Cornbeefur,do you live in walthamstow?[/p][/quote]He's already answered. "I live in Marylebone now but still have strong ties in Walthamstow and East London." http://www.guardian- series.co.uk/your_lo cal_areas/10015998.B oris_Johnson_approve s_Walthamstow_Stadiu m_housing_plans/ He is about as honest as a three pound coin. E17_er
  • Score: 0

7:53pm Sat 10 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

Nairn wrote:
I don't even bother to read Cornbeerur's posts any more - just scroll and ignore the troll ;-)
No, you say you do not, you urge people not to respond in capital letters and guess what?

Hey Presto!

It is......err.........
.Nairn again!

A hot aired, wind bag of Richard The Third, with extra gasses.
[quote][p][bold]Nairn[/bold] wrote: I don't even bother to read Cornbeerur's posts any more - just scroll and ignore the troll ;-)[/p][/quote]No, you say you do not, you urge people not to respond in capital letters and guess what? Hey Presto! It is......err......... .Nairn again! A hot aired, wind bag of Richard The Third, with extra gasses. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

8:08pm Sat 10 Nov 12

Alan_1976 says...

Cornbeefur wrote:
Nairn wrote:
I don't even bother to read Cornbeerur's posts any more - just scroll and ignore the troll ;-)
No, you say you do not, you urge people not to respond in capital letters and guess what?

Hey Presto!

It is......err.........

.Nairn again!

A hot aired, wind bag of Richard The Third, with extra gasses.
Comprehension fail. He wasn't talking to you. Idiot
[quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nairn[/bold] wrote: I don't even bother to read Cornbeerur's posts any more - just scroll and ignore the troll ;-)[/p][/quote]No, you say you do not, you urge people not to respond in capital letters and guess what? Hey Presto! It is......err......... .Nairn again! A hot aired, wind bag of Richard The Third, with extra gasses.[/p][/quote]Comprehension fail. He wasn't talking to you. Idiot Alan_1976
  • Score: 0

10:21pm Sat 10 Nov 12

Sam Hain says...

Excellent, humane and thoughtful analysis of the situation, Helen. Thank you.
Excellent, humane and thoughtful analysis of the situation, Helen. Thank you. Sam Hain
  • Score: 0

7:46am Sun 11 Nov 12

Isaythat says...

Firstly, I cannot imagine how these two women must have felt while this atrocious crime was being committed and will continue to feel for a long time to come. The one place we should feel safe is our home and to have that safety removed should be punishable by a similar attempted murder charge. Extreme you may say, but the shock attached to such a crime would be extreme.

Secondly, Helen, your concise comment only needs implimenting. I agree with everything you say, but particularly:-

" We need to break up the gangs which are not only crime machines on their own but put peer pressure on other young people to follow their lead. We need to force the courts to dish out the maximum available sentences to anyone caught with a gun, knife or other offensive weapon. We need to have better strategies for dealing with drugs."

I do not think we should consider whether our prisions are overcrowded. Just fill them, over fill them, keep over filling them until we put every criminal away. I do not care if they have little space and I do not care if they do not have their human rights. I care for the two women above and people like them.

Crnbfur does have a point though. We do not protest when police stations are closed or cuts are made to their service. We should stand together and say loud and clear, we want our police to be given the support they need to do their job. We need more police on our streets, we need the judicial system to support them by sensible sentencing - not 16 months for knife crime which is so ridiculously short, it is laughable.

We can start by consulting with our police and then campaigning to get them what they need to do their job.
Firstly, I cannot imagine how these two women must have felt while this atrocious crime was being committed and will continue to feel for a long time to come. The one place we should feel safe is our home and to have that safety removed should be punishable by a similar attempted murder charge. Extreme you may say, but the shock attached to such a crime would be extreme. Secondly, Helen, your concise comment only needs implimenting. I agree with everything you say, but particularly:- " We need to break up the gangs which are not only crime machines on their own but put peer pressure on other young people to follow their lead. We need to force the courts to dish out the maximum available sentences to anyone caught with a gun, knife or other offensive weapon. We need to have better strategies for dealing with drugs." I do not think we should consider whether our prisions are overcrowded. Just fill them, over fill them, keep over filling them until we put every criminal away. I do not care if they have little space and I do not care if they do not have their human rights. I care for the two women above and people like them. Crnbfur does have a point though. We do not protest when police stations are closed or cuts are made to their service. We should stand together and say loud and clear, we want our police to be given the support they need to do their job. We need more police on our streets, we need the judicial system to support them by sensible sentencing - not 16 months for knife crime which is so ridiculously short, it is laughable. We can start by consulting with our police and then campaigning to get them what they need to do their job. Isaythat
  • Score: 0

9:13am Sun 11 Nov 12

Helen, Walthamstow says...

Isaythat wrote:
Firstly, I cannot imagine how these two women must have felt while this atrocious crime was being committed and will continue to feel for a long time to come. The one place we should feel safe is our home and to have that safety removed should be punishable by a similar attempted murder charge. Extreme you may say, but the shock attached to such a crime would be extreme.

Secondly, Helen, your concise comment only needs implimenting. I agree with everything you say, but particularly:-

" We need to break up the gangs which are not only crime machines on their own but put peer pressure on other young people to follow their lead. We need to force the courts to dish out the maximum available sentences to anyone caught with a gun, knife or other offensive weapon. We need to have better strategies for dealing with drugs."

I do not think we should consider whether our prisions are overcrowded. Just fill them, over fill them, keep over filling them until we put every criminal away. I do not care if they have little space and I do not care if they do not have their human rights. I care for the two women above and people like them.

Crnbfur does have a point though. We do not protest when police stations are closed or cuts are made to their service. We should stand together and say loud and clear, we want our police to be given the support they need to do their job. We need more police on our streets, we need the judicial system to support them by sensible sentencing - not 16 months for knife crime which is so ridiculously short, it is laughable.

We can start by consulting with our police and then campaigning to get them what they need to do their job.
Isaythat, you raise so many thoughts in my mind that I wish there was a space for a proper discussion - but there isn't, so here are just a few headline thoughts.

I agree with you that stiff prison sentencing should be the only option for serious offenders - killers, rapists, anyone who uses arms or permanently reduces a victim's quality of life.

However, I do wonder if we should overhaul our prison system because incarceration should be geared to doing more to prevent/discourage people from re-offending. Maybe we should look at creating a number of prisons for selected criminals offering no television but lots of physical activity, outdoors as well as indoors, and educational and skills programmes of a high order. Think a set of Gordonstoun with bars! It could turn round the lives of many.. Just an idea.

As for police stations, again we have to think how we deliver policing. Old- fashioned police stations no longer serve a purpose. The one in Forest Road passed its sell-by date years ago and I seriously doubt that many residents even noticed it has been closed. If we want the police now, we phone them

My idea would be to have more smaller police bases, for example on the estates where most of the gangs have their roots (eg the Grey Gang at Priory Court and the DM Gang at The Drive and Marlow) and in other very public places. We need to see the police on the streets and at community events, not holed up in stations a couple of miles from where their work lies. And of ourselves we need more officers.

Discuss!
[quote][p][bold]Isaythat[/bold] wrote: Firstly, I cannot imagine how these two women must have felt while this atrocious crime was being committed and will continue to feel for a long time to come. The one place we should feel safe is our home and to have that safety removed should be punishable by a similar attempted murder charge. Extreme you may say, but the shock attached to such a crime would be extreme. Secondly, Helen, your concise comment only needs implimenting. I agree with everything you say, but particularly:- " We need to break up the gangs which are not only crime machines on their own but put peer pressure on other young people to follow their lead. We need to force the courts to dish out the maximum available sentences to anyone caught with a gun, knife or other offensive weapon. We need to have better strategies for dealing with drugs." I do not think we should consider whether our prisions are overcrowded. Just fill them, over fill them, keep over filling them until we put every criminal away. I do not care if they have little space and I do not care if they do not have their human rights. I care for the two women above and people like them. Crnbfur does have a point though. We do not protest when police stations are closed or cuts are made to their service. We should stand together and say loud and clear, we want our police to be given the support they need to do their job. We need more police on our streets, we need the judicial system to support them by sensible sentencing - not 16 months for knife crime which is so ridiculously short, it is laughable. We can start by consulting with our police and then campaigning to get them what they need to do their job.[/p][/quote]Isaythat, you raise so many thoughts in my mind that I wish there was a space for a proper discussion - but there isn't, so here are just a few headline thoughts. I agree with you that stiff prison sentencing should be the only option for serious offenders - killers, rapists, anyone who uses arms or permanently reduces a victim's quality of life. However, I do wonder if we should overhaul our prison system because incarceration should be geared to doing more to prevent/discourage people from re-offending. Maybe we should look at creating a number of prisons for selected criminals offering no television but lots of physical activity, outdoors as well as indoors, and educational and skills programmes of a high order. Think a set of Gordonstoun with bars! It could turn round the lives of many.. Just an idea. As for police stations, again we have to think how we deliver policing. Old- fashioned police stations no longer serve a purpose. The one in Forest Road passed its sell-by date years ago and I seriously doubt that many residents even noticed it has been closed. If we want the police now, we phone them My idea would be to have more smaller police bases, for example on the estates where most of the gangs have their roots (eg the Grey Gang at Priory Court and the DM Gang at The Drive and Marlow) and in other very public places. We need to see the police on the streets and at community events, not holed up in stations a couple of miles from where their work lies. And of ourselves we need more officers. Discuss! Helen, Walthamstow
  • Score: 0

9:42am Sun 11 Nov 12

Isaythat says...

Helen. The reason I mention discussing with the police first, is because I am always of the opinion that nothing is better than experience. I know nothing about their job, other than to phone them for help! So I still maintain talking to them, listening to them and acting and continuing to support them is the way forward. That should be the first step in restoring law and order.

You are kinder than I am!. I do not see that putting a gaggle of hardened criminals together and trying to educate them will help at all (but I am open to discussion). My thoughts would be towards a much darker place, closer to an army barracks/prison of war camp. After all, we are fighting a war - against crime.
But again, I would consult with the police and prison staff and trust they know their profession.
Helen. The reason I mention discussing with the police first, is because I am always of the opinion that nothing is better than experience. I know nothing about their job, other than to phone them for help! So I still maintain talking to them, listening to them and acting and continuing to support them is the way forward. That should be the first step in restoring law and order. You are kinder than I am!. I do not see that putting a gaggle of hardened criminals together and trying to educate them will help at all (but I am open to discussion). My thoughts would be towards a much darker place, closer to an army barracks/prison of war camp. After all, we are fighting a war - against crime. But again, I would consult with the police and prison staff and trust they know their profession. Isaythat
  • Score: 0

10:02am Sun 11 Nov 12

Isaythat says...

I hope the guys will add their views too, to widen the discussion.
I hope the guys will add their views too, to widen the discussion. Isaythat
  • Score: 0

10:07am Sun 11 Nov 12

Nairn says...

Isaythat.

Yes, if people know nothing about the work the police do, it would be good to talk to them. I know many of us last year got the opportunity to do this during the riots when hundreds of us volunteered at a Respite Centre that was set up here to give the police a hot drink, food and somewhere to relax for a few minutes before rushing off to respond to a whole host of emergencies (not just riot related).

I personally learned a lot about their work - I saw them come into the centre exhausted and sometimes shocked by what they had been asked to deal with; I saw the amount of time they waste responding to ridiculous 999 calls made by members of the public who seem to think that emergencies requiring immediate police presence include, for example, a smell of smoke in the street!!! I saw that they are not only police in the traditional sense of the word but also social workers, baby-sitters and a whole host of other things.

As for people not protesting against closures of police stations and cuts in policing, I know a number of people, including myself, joined the police protest in London in May this year. 30000 police took to the streets to protest and many 'ordinary' people joined them. As one of the banners police carried on the day said 'cutting the police force by 20% is criminal'.

It IS criminal and the people who commit crimes in this country must be smiling to themselves as the cuts give them even more opportunity than ever to carry out crimes such as the one in this article.
Isaythat. Yes, if people know nothing about the work the police do, it would be good to talk to them. I know many of us last year got the opportunity to do this during the riots when hundreds of us volunteered at a Respite Centre that was set up here to give the police a hot drink, food and somewhere to relax for a few minutes before rushing off to respond to a whole host of emergencies (not just riot related). I personally learned a lot about their work - I saw them come into the centre exhausted and sometimes shocked by what they had been asked to deal with; I saw the amount of time they waste responding to ridiculous 999 calls made by members of the public who seem to think that emergencies requiring immediate police presence include, for example, a smell of smoke in the street!!! I saw that they are not only police in the traditional sense of the word but also social workers, baby-sitters and a whole host of other things. As for people not protesting against closures of police stations and cuts in policing, I know a number of people, including myself, joined the police protest in London in May this year. 30000 police took to the streets to protest and many 'ordinary' people joined them. As one of the banners police carried on the day said 'cutting the police force by 20% is criminal'. It IS criminal and the people who commit crimes in this country must be smiling to themselves as the cuts give them even more opportunity than ever to carry out crimes such as the one in this article. Nairn
  • Score: 0

11:20am Sun 11 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

Nairn wrote:
Isaythat.

Yes, if people know nothing about the work the police do, it would be good to talk to them. I know many of us last year got the opportunity to do this during the riots when hundreds of us volunteered at a Respite Centre that was set up here to give the police a hot drink, food and somewhere to relax for a few minutes before rushing off to respond to a whole host of emergencies (not just riot related).

I personally learned a lot about their work - I saw them come into the centre exhausted and sometimes shocked by what they had been asked to deal with; I saw the amount of time they waste responding to ridiculous 999 calls made by members of the public who seem to think that emergencies requiring immediate police presence include, for example, a smell of smoke in the street!!! I saw that they are not only police in the traditional sense of the word but also social workers, baby-sitters and a whole host of other things.

As for people not protesting against closures of police stations and cuts in policing, I know a number of people, including myself, joined the police protest in London in May this year. 30000 police took to the streets to protest and many 'ordinary' people joined them. As one of the banners police carried on the day said 'cutting the police force by 20% is criminal'.

It IS criminal and the people who commit crimes in this country must be smiling to themselves as the cuts give them even more opportunity than ever to carry out crimes such as the one in this article.
You can see the type of work the police do if you visit some of the Cafes around the Borough (especially near Chingford in large car parks) or Whipps Cross tea huts where numerous police cars will be parked up all day and already vastly over weight officers will be feeding their ever expanding waistlines.

They could hardly run after anyone if they tried.
[quote][p][bold]Nairn[/bold] wrote: Isaythat. Yes, if people know nothing about the work the police do, it would be good to talk to them. I know many of us last year got the opportunity to do this during the riots when hundreds of us volunteered at a Respite Centre that was set up here to give the police a hot drink, food and somewhere to relax for a few minutes before rushing off to respond to a whole host of emergencies (not just riot related). I personally learned a lot about their work - I saw them come into the centre exhausted and sometimes shocked by what they had been asked to deal with; I saw the amount of time they waste responding to ridiculous 999 calls made by members of the public who seem to think that emergencies requiring immediate police presence include, for example, a smell of smoke in the street!!! I saw that they are not only police in the traditional sense of the word but also social workers, baby-sitters and a whole host of other things. As for people not protesting against closures of police stations and cuts in policing, I know a number of people, including myself, joined the police protest in London in May this year. 30000 police took to the streets to protest and many 'ordinary' people joined them. As one of the banners police carried on the day said 'cutting the police force by 20% is criminal'. It IS criminal and the people who commit crimes in this country must be smiling to themselves as the cuts give them even more opportunity than ever to carry out crimes such as the one in this article.[/p][/quote]You can see the type of work the police do if you visit some of the Cafes around the Borough (especially near Chingford in large car parks) or Whipps Cross tea huts where numerous police cars will be parked up all day and already vastly over weight officers will be feeding their ever expanding waistlines. They could hardly run after anyone if they tried. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

11:48am Sun 11 Nov 12

JackDaniels says...

OK, time to weigh in. Helen, bang on the button, good job!
Now that we are purportedly reaching the end of the recession, the cuts enforced by the Mayor of London our new Police Commissioner, are starting to bite.
Our SNT police are having their cars taken away, their numbers effectively reduced, their workloads increased, etc, etc.
Morale is at an all time low.
Anything and everything that we can possibly do as citizens now needs doing. For far too long we have relied on the Police solving our crime problems, they now need our help and badly.
What can we do? Wise up. We need to be less inwardly facing and more community spirited, we need to recover some of the old values and start looking out for each other.
It looks as though someone in South Woodford has the right idea, take a look at SouthWoodfordNHW.inf
o. If we can help beef up Neighbourhood Watches, we are only helping ourselves.
We can no longer place all our faith in the Police alone, they are being controlled by the politicians and the bean counters. They are being forced into selling off assets just to survive the current environment and maintain a reasonable level of service. Under the circumstances, they do a fantastic job with minimal resources and should be saluted as they pass. They are not in control of their own destiny and shouldn't be bashed at every opportunity and no, before you ask CB, I have no affiliation with the Police.
Yes, they are entitled to breaks and refreshments, they are not parked up all day anywhere, you'll be glad enough if you ever encounter any problems and they come to your rescue.
OK, time to weigh in. Helen, bang on the button, good job! Now that we are purportedly reaching the end of the recession, the cuts enforced by the Mayor of London our new Police Commissioner, are starting to bite. Our SNT police are having their cars taken away, their numbers effectively reduced, their workloads increased, etc, etc. Morale is at an all time low. Anything and everything that we can possibly do as citizens now needs doing. For far too long we have relied on the Police solving our crime problems, they now need our help and badly. What can we do? Wise up. We need to be less inwardly facing and more community spirited, we need to recover some of the old values and start looking out for each other. It looks as though someone in South Woodford has the right idea, take a look at SouthWoodfordNHW.inf o. If we can help beef up Neighbourhood Watches, we are only helping ourselves. We can no longer place all our faith in the Police alone, they are being controlled by the politicians and the bean counters. They are being forced into selling off assets just to survive the current environment and maintain a reasonable level of service. Under the circumstances, they do a fantastic job with minimal resources and should be saluted as they pass. They are not in control of their own destiny and shouldn't be bashed at every opportunity and no, before you ask CB, I have no affiliation with the Police. Yes, they are entitled to breaks and refreshments, they are not parked up all day anywhere, you'll be glad enough if you ever encounter any problems and they come to your rescue. JackDaniels
  • Score: 0

11:58am Sun 11 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

JackDaniels wrote:
OK, time to weigh in. Helen, bang on the button, good job!
Now that we are purportedly reaching the end of the recession, the cuts enforced by the Mayor of London our new Police Commissioner, are starting to bite.
Our SNT police are having their cars taken away, their numbers effectively reduced, their workloads increased, etc, etc.
Morale is at an all time low.
Anything and everything that we can possibly do as citizens now needs doing. For far too long we have relied on the Police solving our crime problems, they now need our help and badly.
What can we do? Wise up. We need to be less inwardly facing and more community spirited, we need to recover some of the old values and start looking out for each other.
It looks as though someone in South Woodford has the right idea, take a look at SouthWoodfordNHW.inf

o. If we can help beef up Neighbourhood Watches, we are only helping ourselves.
We can no longer place all our faith in the Police alone, they are being controlled by the politicians and the bean counters. They are being forced into selling off assets just to survive the current environment and maintain a reasonable level of service. Under the circumstances, they do a fantastic job with minimal resources and should be saluted as they pass. They are not in control of their own destiny and shouldn't be bashed at every opportunity and no, before you ask CB, I have no affiliation with the Police.
Yes, they are entitled to breaks and refreshments, they are not parked up all day anywhere, you'll be glad enough if you ever encounter any problems and they come to your rescue.
Precisely the point, any time I have had to call them, (last time, a 4 day response for a burglary where the suspects were still there at the time they were phoned!), I had a very poor service when they did eventually turn up. Meanwhile I saw vans and cars as described in various parts of the Borough. Sewardstone Road was another place. does not instil public confidence.

Problem with the Police, as I see it, is they are top heavy, too many ranks in the station getting the lions share of the Police Budget, when those who do the real work at the front end are being cut.

People are not interested in ranks above Inspector. Pay scales are readily available on line. You can get 3 PC's for a Chief Super which in light of things I would rather have the former.
[quote][p][bold]JackDaniels[/bold] wrote: OK, time to weigh in. Helen, bang on the button, good job! Now that we are purportedly reaching the end of the recession, the cuts enforced by the Mayor of London our new Police Commissioner, are starting to bite. Our SNT police are having their cars taken away, their numbers effectively reduced, their workloads increased, etc, etc. Morale is at an all time low. Anything and everything that we can possibly do as citizens now needs doing. For far too long we have relied on the Police solving our crime problems, they now need our help and badly. What can we do? Wise up. We need to be less inwardly facing and more community spirited, we need to recover some of the old values and start looking out for each other. It looks as though someone in South Woodford has the right idea, take a look at SouthWoodfordNHW.inf o. If we can help beef up Neighbourhood Watches, we are only helping ourselves. We can no longer place all our faith in the Police alone, they are being controlled by the politicians and the bean counters. They are being forced into selling off assets just to survive the current environment and maintain a reasonable level of service. Under the circumstances, they do a fantastic job with minimal resources and should be saluted as they pass. They are not in control of their own destiny and shouldn't be bashed at every opportunity and no, before you ask CB, I have no affiliation with the Police. Yes, they are entitled to breaks and refreshments, they are not parked up all day anywhere, you'll be glad enough if you ever encounter any problems and they come to your rescue.[/p][/quote]Precisely the point, any time I have had to call them, (last time, a 4 day response for a burglary where the suspects were still there at the time they were phoned!), I had a very poor service when they did eventually turn up. Meanwhile I saw vans and cars as described in various parts of the Borough. Sewardstone Road was another place. does not instil public confidence. Problem with the Police, as I see it, is they are top heavy, too many ranks in the station getting the lions share of the Police Budget, when those who do the real work at the front end are being cut. People are not interested in ranks above Inspector. Pay scales are readily available on line. You can get 3 PC's for a Chief Super which in light of things I would rather have the former. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

12:17pm Sun 11 Nov 12

E17_er says...

Make up your mind Cornbeefur. Your last two comments flatly contradict each other.
Make up your mind Cornbeefur. Your last two comments flatly contradict each other. E17_er
  • Score: 0

2:01pm Sun 11 Nov 12

JackDaniels says...

Cornbeefur wrote:
JackDaniels wrote:
OK, time to weigh in. Helen, bang on the button, good job!
Now that we are purportedly reaching the end of the recession, the cuts enforced by the Mayor of London our new Police Commissioner, are starting to bite.
Our SNT police are having their cars taken away, their numbers effectively reduced, their workloads increased, etc, etc.
Morale is at an all time low.
Anything and everything that we can possibly do as citizens now needs doing. For far too long we have relied on the Police solving our crime problems, they now need our help and badly.
What can we do? Wise up. We need to be less inwardly facing and more community spirited, we need to recover some of the old values and start looking out for each other.
It looks as though someone in South Woodford has the right idea, take a look at SouthWoodfordNHW.inf


o. If we can help beef up Neighbourhood Watches, we are only helping ourselves.
We can no longer place all our faith in the Police alone, they are being controlled by the politicians and the bean counters. They are being forced into selling off assets just to survive the current environment and maintain a reasonable level of service. Under the circumstances, they do a fantastic job with minimal resources and should be saluted as they pass. They are not in control of their own destiny and shouldn't be bashed at every opportunity and no, before you ask CB, I have no affiliation with the Police.
Yes, they are entitled to breaks and refreshments, they are not parked up all day anywhere, you'll be glad enough if you ever encounter any problems and they come to your rescue.
Precisely the point, any time I have had to call them, (last time, a 4 day response for a burglary where the suspects were still there at the time they were phoned!), I had a very poor service when they did eventually turn up. Meanwhile I saw vans and cars as described in various parts of the Borough. Sewardstone Road was another place. does not instil public confidence.

Problem with the Police, as I see it, is they are top heavy, too many ranks in the station getting the lions share of the Police Budget, when those who do the real work at the front end are being cut.

People are not interested in ranks above Inspector. Pay scales are readily available on line. You can get 3 PC's for a Chief Super which in light of things I would rather have the former.
Things are about to change, by next March there will be far fewer "Senior Police", the bean counters are ahead of you CB.
As for isolated incidents and cases, forget about it. You don't know what priorities come up to interrupt normal service. Maybe you'll read about them in the papers a few days later, but when the big stuff happens or the Major operations take place, there won't be anyone available to deal with following up on a residential burglary.
These things do happen and frequently.
Another time, you could find them on your doorstep in under 12 minutes. I've experienced two minutes in the past.
You are quite renowned for a fairly sardonic/pessimistic view of life. Sometimes it may help if you put yourself in the other person's shoes, metaphorically speaking.
Of course each team operates differently, there are "good and not so good" in every public service, that's just human nature and they are all human.
[quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]JackDaniels[/bold] wrote: OK, time to weigh in. Helen, bang on the button, good job! Now that we are purportedly reaching the end of the recession, the cuts enforced by the Mayor of London our new Police Commissioner, are starting to bite. Our SNT police are having their cars taken away, their numbers effectively reduced, their workloads increased, etc, etc. Morale is at an all time low. Anything and everything that we can possibly do as citizens now needs doing. For far too long we have relied on the Police solving our crime problems, they now need our help and badly. What can we do? Wise up. We need to be less inwardly facing and more community spirited, we need to recover some of the old values and start looking out for each other. It looks as though someone in South Woodford has the right idea, take a look at SouthWoodfordNHW.inf o. If we can help beef up Neighbourhood Watches, we are only helping ourselves. We can no longer place all our faith in the Police alone, they are being controlled by the politicians and the bean counters. They are being forced into selling off assets just to survive the current environment and maintain a reasonable level of service. Under the circumstances, they do a fantastic job with minimal resources and should be saluted as they pass. They are not in control of their own destiny and shouldn't be bashed at every opportunity and no, before you ask CB, I have no affiliation with the Police. Yes, they are entitled to breaks and refreshments, they are not parked up all day anywhere, you'll be glad enough if you ever encounter any problems and they come to your rescue.[/p][/quote]Precisely the point, any time I have had to call them, (last time, a 4 day response for a burglary where the suspects were still there at the time they were phoned!), I had a very poor service when they did eventually turn up. Meanwhile I saw vans and cars as described in various parts of the Borough. Sewardstone Road was another place. does not instil public confidence. Problem with the Police, as I see it, is they are top heavy, too many ranks in the station getting the lions share of the Police Budget, when those who do the real work at the front end are being cut. People are not interested in ranks above Inspector. Pay scales are readily available on line. You can get 3 PC's for a Chief Super which in light of things I would rather have the former.[/p][/quote]Things are about to change, by next March there will be far fewer "Senior Police", the bean counters are ahead of you CB. As for isolated incidents and cases, forget about it. You don't know what priorities come up to interrupt normal service. Maybe you'll read about them in the papers a few days later, but when the big stuff happens or the Major operations take place, there won't be anyone available to deal with following up on a residential burglary. These things do happen and frequently. Another time, you could find them on your doorstep in under 12 minutes. I've experienced two minutes in the past. You are quite renowned for a fairly sardonic/pessimistic view of life. Sometimes it may help if you put yourself in the other person's shoes, metaphorically speaking. Of course each team operates differently, there are "good and not so good" in every public service, that's just human nature and they are all human. JackDaniels
  • Score: 0

2:43pm Sun 11 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

JackDaniels wrote:
Cornbeefur wrote:
JackDaniels wrote:
OK, time to weigh in. Helen, bang on the button, good job!
Now that we are purportedly reaching the end of the recession, the cuts enforced by the Mayor of London our new Police Commissioner, are starting to bite.
Our SNT police are having their cars taken away, their numbers effectively reduced, their workloads increased, etc, etc.
Morale is at an all time low.
Anything and everything that we can possibly do as citizens now needs doing. For far too long we have relied on the Police solving our crime problems, they now need our help and badly.
What can we do? Wise up. We need to be less inwardly facing and more community spirited, we need to recover some of the old values and start looking out for each other.
It looks as though someone in South Woodford has the right idea, take a look at SouthWoodfordNHW.inf



o. If we can help beef up Neighbourhood Watches, we are only helping ourselves.
We can no longer place all our faith in the Police alone, they are being controlled by the politicians and the bean counters. They are being forced into selling off assets just to survive the current environment and maintain a reasonable level of service. Under the circumstances, they do a fantastic job with minimal resources and should be saluted as they pass. They are not in control of their own destiny and shouldn't be bashed at every opportunity and no, before you ask CB, I have no affiliation with the Police.
Yes, they are entitled to breaks and refreshments, they are not parked up all day anywhere, you'll be glad enough if you ever encounter any problems and they come to your rescue.
Precisely the point, any time I have had to call them, (last time, a 4 day response for a burglary where the suspects were still there at the time they were phoned!), I had a very poor service when they did eventually turn up. Meanwhile I saw vans and cars as described in various parts of the Borough. Sewardstone Road was another place. does not instil public confidence.

Problem with the Police, as I see it, is they are top heavy, too many ranks in the station getting the lions share of the Police Budget, when those who do the real work at the front end are being cut.

People are not interested in ranks above Inspector. Pay scales are readily available on line. You can get 3 PC's for a Chief Super which in light of things I would rather have the former.
Things are about to change, by next March there will be far fewer "Senior Police", the bean counters are ahead of you CB.
As for isolated incidents and cases, forget about it. You don't know what priorities come up to interrupt normal service. Maybe you'll read about them in the papers a few days later, but when the big stuff happens or the Major operations take place, there won't be anyone available to deal with following up on a residential burglary.
These things do happen and frequently.
Another time, you could find them on your doorstep in under 12 minutes. I've experienced two minutes in the past.
You are quite renowned for a fairly sardonic/pessimistic view of life. Sometimes it may help if you put yourself in the other person's shoes, metaphorically speaking.
Of course each team operates differently, there are "good and not so good" in every public service, that's just human nature and they are all human.
It would be a good idea if they gave them each a whistle so that when they wanted someone to stop when they scarpered, they could blow it, as most appear too overweight to run after a carrier bag in the wind.
[quote][p][bold]JackDaniels[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]JackDaniels[/bold] wrote: OK, time to weigh in. Helen, bang on the button, good job! Now that we are purportedly reaching the end of the recession, the cuts enforced by the Mayor of London our new Police Commissioner, are starting to bite. Our SNT police are having their cars taken away, their numbers effectively reduced, their workloads increased, etc, etc. Morale is at an all time low. Anything and everything that we can possibly do as citizens now needs doing. For far too long we have relied on the Police solving our crime problems, they now need our help and badly. What can we do? Wise up. We need to be less inwardly facing and more community spirited, we need to recover some of the old values and start looking out for each other. It looks as though someone in South Woodford has the right idea, take a look at SouthWoodfordNHW.inf o. If we can help beef up Neighbourhood Watches, we are only helping ourselves. We can no longer place all our faith in the Police alone, they are being controlled by the politicians and the bean counters. They are being forced into selling off assets just to survive the current environment and maintain a reasonable level of service. Under the circumstances, they do a fantastic job with minimal resources and should be saluted as they pass. They are not in control of their own destiny and shouldn't be bashed at every opportunity and no, before you ask CB, I have no affiliation with the Police. Yes, they are entitled to breaks and refreshments, they are not parked up all day anywhere, you'll be glad enough if you ever encounter any problems and they come to your rescue.[/p][/quote]Precisely the point, any time I have had to call them, (last time, a 4 day response for a burglary where the suspects were still there at the time they were phoned!), I had a very poor service when they did eventually turn up. Meanwhile I saw vans and cars as described in various parts of the Borough. Sewardstone Road was another place. does not instil public confidence. Problem with the Police, as I see it, is they are top heavy, too many ranks in the station getting the lions share of the Police Budget, when those who do the real work at the front end are being cut. People are not interested in ranks above Inspector. Pay scales are readily available on line. You can get 3 PC's for a Chief Super which in light of things I would rather have the former.[/p][/quote]Things are about to change, by next March there will be far fewer "Senior Police", the bean counters are ahead of you CB. As for isolated incidents and cases, forget about it. You don't know what priorities come up to interrupt normal service. Maybe you'll read about them in the papers a few days later, but when the big stuff happens or the Major operations take place, there won't be anyone available to deal with following up on a residential burglary. These things do happen and frequently. Another time, you could find them on your doorstep in under 12 minutes. I've experienced two minutes in the past. You are quite renowned for a fairly sardonic/pessimistic view of life. Sometimes it may help if you put yourself in the other person's shoes, metaphorically speaking. Of course each team operates differently, there are "good and not so good" in every public service, that's just human nature and they are all human.[/p][/quote]It would be a good idea if they gave them each a whistle so that when they wanted someone to stop when they scarpered, they could blow it, as most appear too overweight to run after a carrier bag in the wind. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

3:19pm Sun 11 Nov 12

Helen, Walthamstow says...

With the exception of one poster, the commentators above have all raised valid points - thereby proving that sensible people can have a sensible and productive discussion without resorting to constant repetition and cheap insults.

Isaythat and Nairn, you are quite correct, police officers themselves - those at the lower ranks - probably should be drawn into the debate at some level since they are the ones on the frontline and know what needs to be put right. Both Nairn and Sam Hain have already described their experiences with officers who gave them good service in spite of seriously over-stretched.

The danger is that they will be stretched to breaking point and that will reduce their effectiveness to a dangerous level. The answer of course is more police officers. That's what the politicians have to recognise and deal with before we have a crisis on our hands. Keeping up and increasing the numbers should be their priority, and if one of the means to that end involves selling large and expensive police stations with limited usage now that we have a custody centre and most crime is reported electronically, so be it.

Jack Daniels, you make good points too re our responsibility as citizens to participate in schemes which can lead to crime reduction and, on occasions, the apprehension of criminals.

Isaythat, I wasn't actually trying to be kind when I suggested the Gordonstoun-type centres! Kind? Me?

What I was envisaging was a certain kind of criminal, young (teenagers in the youth custody system and 21 to say 25 or a bit older), first serious offenders and probably ill-educated or in the early stages of drug addiction. These are the ones who can still be turned around if they are kept out of the reach of the career criminals and (temporarily) imprisoned gang leaders.

For many of them, the sort of institution I am picturing could offer them possibly the first chance they have ever had to learn self-discipline and the value of hard work, and to acquire new skills and a sound grounding in maths and English which could set them up in good stead for a better future.

A bright and loveable young man I have known all his life, from a good and loving family and with his first year or two of university under his belt, landed up in jail, largely because he stupidly let himself be drawn into a gang of equally bright young men from good families under the leadership of a hardened criminal.

My young friend is highly conscious that what he did was Wrong (with a capital W), but after the first shock and misery he has set about making the best of his time in prison, not only using every opportunity that presents to learn for himself, but also (with officialy approval) helping other young prisoners to acquire basic skills. He has been shocked by how many of them have never enjoyed any quality of home life, who truanted from school and who can barely read and write.

I guess that's the kind of person I have in mind.
With the exception of one poster, the commentators above have all raised valid points - thereby proving that sensible people can have a sensible and productive discussion without resorting to constant repetition and cheap insults. Isaythat and Nairn, you are quite correct, police officers themselves - those at the lower ranks - probably should be drawn into the debate at some level since they are the ones on the frontline and know what needs to be put right. Both Nairn and Sam Hain have already described their experiences with officers who gave them good service in spite of seriously over-stretched. The danger is that they will be stretched to breaking point and that will reduce their effectiveness to a dangerous level. The answer of course is more police officers. That's what the politicians have to recognise and deal with before we have a crisis on our hands. Keeping up and increasing the numbers should be their priority, and if one of the means to that end involves selling large and expensive police stations with limited usage now that we have a custody centre and most crime is reported electronically, so be it. Jack Daniels, you make good points too re our responsibility as citizens to participate in schemes which can lead to crime reduction and, on occasions, the apprehension of criminals. Isaythat, I wasn't actually trying to be kind when I suggested the Gordonstoun-type centres! Kind? Me? What I was envisaging was a certain kind of criminal, young (teenagers in the youth custody system and 21 to say 25 or a bit older), first serious offenders and probably ill-educated or in the early stages of drug addiction. These are the ones who can still be turned around if they are kept out of the reach of the career criminals and (temporarily) imprisoned gang leaders. For many of them, the sort of institution I am picturing could offer them possibly the first chance they have ever had to learn self-discipline and the value of hard work, and to acquire new skills and a sound grounding in maths and English which could set them up in good stead for a better future. A bright and loveable young man I have known all his life, from a good and loving family and with his first year or two of university under his belt, landed up in jail, largely because he stupidly let himself be drawn into a gang of equally bright young men from good families under the leadership of a hardened criminal. My young friend is highly conscious that what he did was Wrong (with a capital W), but after the first shock and misery he has set about making the best of his time in prison, not only using every opportunity that presents to learn for himself, but also (with officialy approval) helping other young prisoners to acquire basic skills. He has been shocked by how many of them have never enjoyed any quality of home life, who truanted from school and who can barely read and write. I guess that's the kind of person I have in mind. Helen, Walthamstow
  • Score: 0

3:44pm Sun 11 Nov 12

Helen, Walthamstow says...

Just to clarify the above. When I say: "I guess that's the kind of person I have in mind”, I'm referring to the other prisoners, not my friend!
Just to clarify the above. When I say: "I guess that's the kind of person I have in mind”, I'm referring to the other prisoners, not my friend! Helen, Walthamstow
  • Score: 0

4:34pm Sun 11 Nov 12

Isaythat says...

Helen. I do see your vision here.

I totally agree that it is better to have the police on the streets where they are needed and can do the most good, rather than behind a desk. So it will be a better use of money to sell the stations - providing the police have no legitimate objections. I imagine they would rather be out there fighting crime.

As for turning around these youths, who and how would the 'redeamable ones' be selected? In theory it is a fantastic idea, but in practise I am not so sure. Having selected them and sent them to start this turn around, how about the others? the ones who we consider not able or wanting to alter. I have now brought myself back to the beginning.....if they all know that the punishment for a crime is swift, tough and brutal, with no mitigating circumstances to be considered in the cases of clearing defined crimes (the ones you mention) the people you refer to will not do it for fear of that and the others will be in an institution which fits the bill.

If you think I have this wrong and you are willing to take the time, I am interested to hear why.

It is a pity we cannot speak over coffee, because as you say, it is difficult to voice everything here.
Helen. I do see your vision here. I totally agree that it is better to have the police on the streets where they are needed and can do the most good, rather than behind a desk. So it will be a better use of money to sell the stations - providing the police have no legitimate objections. I imagine they would rather be out there fighting crime. As for turning around these youths, who and how would the 'redeamable ones' be selected? In theory it is a fantastic idea, but in practise I am not so sure. Having selected them and sent them to start this turn around, how about the others? the ones who we consider not able or wanting to alter. I have now brought myself back to the beginning.....if they all know that the punishment for a crime is swift, tough and brutal, with no mitigating circumstances to be considered in the cases of clearing defined crimes (the ones you mention) the people you refer to will not do it for fear of that and the others will be in an institution which fits the bill. If you think I have this wrong and you are willing to take the time, I am interested to hear why. It is a pity we cannot speak over coffee, because as you say, it is difficult to voice everything here. Isaythat
  • Score: 0

7:04pm Sun 11 Nov 12

Helen, Walthamstow says...

I wish I had all the answers, Isaythat, but I don't. I'm not an expert, just someone who has seen a little of what prison does to people and thinks there has to be more to the experience than just being locked up as punishment. If folk keep returning to jail repeatedly(recidivis
m), then basically we are all spending a lot of money on a system that is not effective.

In an ideal world, I'd make sure that every person sent to prison had an individual plan drawn up for rehabilitation. But it isn't an ideal world and I'm very conscious of the fact that at least a part of the prison population is just plain bad! They won't be rescued
but for others, like the young friend I mentioned above who was in a young offenders' institution for a few months then moved to a main prison (to be released soon), if the proper systems in place they can not only be punished for what they did wrong but also be given tools to help them not to reoffend.

This isn't about being soft on criminals! It's about making the punishment more valuable long term not only for the offender but for society as a whole.

Years back, in the late 70s, I worked for a while on a community project alongside a group of men who were among the first to serve community sentences. It took place each Saturday. I particularly remember one bloke who admitted he had been in and out of prison all this adult life. He was surprised to be offered the community work alternative, but the benefit for him was that he could continue his weekday job and stay with and support his wife and family, and he was impressed that what he called "decent people" could work alongside him and not look down on him. I don't know what happened to him, but he was insistent when the project ended that his jail days were over. I hope that proved true. He was a lovely man!
I wish I had all the answers, Isaythat, but I don't. I'm not an expert, just someone who has seen a little of what prison does to people and thinks there has to be more to the experience than just being locked up as punishment. If folk keep returning to jail repeatedly(recidivis m), then basically we are all spending a lot of money on a system that is not effective. In an ideal world, I'd make sure that every person sent to prison had an individual plan drawn up for rehabilitation. But it isn't an ideal world and I'm very conscious of the fact that at least a part of the prison population is just plain bad! They won't be rescued but for others, like the young friend I mentioned above who was in a young offenders' institution for a few months then moved to a main prison (to be released soon), if the proper systems in place they can not only be punished for what they did wrong but also be given tools to help them not to reoffend. This isn't about being soft on criminals! It's about making the punishment more valuable long term not only for the offender but for society as a whole. Years back, in the late 70s, I worked for a while on a community project alongside a group of men who were among the first to serve community sentences. It took place each Saturday. I particularly remember one bloke who admitted he had been in and out of prison all this adult life. He was surprised to be offered the community work alternative, but the benefit for him was that he could continue his weekday job and stay with and support his wife and family, and he was impressed that what he called "decent people" could work alongside him and not look down on him. I don't know what happened to him, but he was insistent when the project ended that his jail days were over. I hope that proved true. He was a lovely man! Helen, Walthamstow
  • Score: 0

7:23pm Sun 11 Nov 12

Isaythat says...

Helen, I bow to your experience in this field and thank you for a very good discussion. Maybe someone with influence has read this conversation and can use some of the ideas expressed in a positive way for the future.
Have a nice evening.
Helen, I bow to your experience in this field and thank you for a very good discussion. Maybe someone with influence has read this conversation and can use some of the ideas expressed in a positive way for the future. Have a nice evening. Isaythat
  • Score: 0

7:36pm Sun 11 Nov 12

E17_er says...

Indeed Helen. Very interesting stuff
Indeed Helen. Very interesting stuff E17_er
  • Score: 0

8:20pm Sun 11 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

E17_er wrote:
Indeed Helen. Very interesting stuff
Helen, Isaythatthis and E17, the Three Amigos.

Cannot wait for the new book, Fifty Shades of Whey.
[quote][p][bold]E17_er[/bold] wrote: Indeed Helen. Very interesting stuff[/p][/quote]Helen, Isaythatthis and E17, the Three Amigos. Cannot wait for the new book, Fifty Shades of Whey. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

10:09pm Sun 11 Nov 12

Clear Thinking says...

I've been reading the way this thread has been developing, those who know me think that my definition of a suspended sentence involves a length of rope. I have been interested in and enjoyed the well placed comments (apart from one poster).

My feelings are that we seem to use prisons as warehouses, this isn't really effective as they enable the career criminals to recruit from the gullible fodder in one convenient location. It may be better to operate a "tiered" system of incarceration starting with a boot camp type of institution leading up to a high security traditional prison.
I have spoken with some who are/were in hostels following release and most seemed intent on reintegration and didn't fit the "Daily Mail" profile which the media seems to promote, at risk of sounding like a "bleeding heart liberal" some seemed better citizens than those who hadn't spent time away (one hostel had several members who couldn't find employment so tidied the gardens of some elderly neighbours - not what I expected to find, and there was less trouble than found from the average bedsit), even a cynic like me found it a pleasant surprise, sometimes the system can work!
I've been reading the way this thread has been developing, those who know me think that my definition of a suspended sentence involves a length of rope. I have been interested in and enjoyed the well placed comments (apart from one poster). My feelings are that we seem to use prisons as warehouses, this isn't really effective as they enable the career criminals to recruit from the gullible fodder in one convenient location. It may be better to operate a "tiered" system of incarceration starting with a boot camp type of institution leading up to a high security traditional prison. I have spoken with some who are/were in hostels following release and most seemed intent on reintegration and didn't fit the "Daily Mail" profile which the media seems to promote, at risk of sounding like a "bleeding heart liberal" some seemed better citizens than those who hadn't spent time away (one hostel had several members who couldn't find employment so tidied the gardens of some elderly neighbours - not what I expected to find, and there was less trouble than found from the average bedsit), even a cynic like me found it a pleasant surprise, sometimes the system can work! Clear Thinking
  • Score: 0

10:43pm Sun 11 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

'It may be better to operate a "tiered" system of incarceration starting with a boot camp type of institution leading up to a high security traditional prison'.

What? Ultimately dunking in a river tied to a chair like?

Sounds very like Daily Mail to me.

You clear thinking has become clouded Sir!
'It may be better to operate a "tiered" system of incarceration starting with a boot camp type of institution leading up to a high security traditional prison'. What? Ultimately dunking in a river tied to a chair like? Sounds very like Daily Mail to me. You clear thinking has become clouded Sir! Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

12:27am Mon 12 Nov 12

JackDaniels says...

Just a quick word on our legal system please. In order to get a conviction, the police need the paperwork spot on, otherwise the clever dick paid a fortune defense barristers tear their cases apart. The CPS if you've ever seen them in action whilst on Jury service are under ridiculous pressure too, often to the detriment of the cases put forward.
Without that "time at the desk", the arrests can be made, but not unfortunately the convictions.
Of course there is also, dare I say it, the element of the rose-coloured glasses brigade to contend with too (No, I'm not becoming CB). The jurors who always seem to "see the good" in everyone and squash the justice.
If anyone needs boot/training camp, it's jurors, i.e. US.
Do I offer any answers? No.
Do I understand the issues? That's for you to judge.
What is crass, is the latest idea of taking away all the local police transport, apart from bicycles. Nowadays even to book an arrest involves many wasted hours travelling back and forth on buses. To the courts and to the custody cells.
To the criminal it's a simple weighing up of risk vs reward.
Maybe that's too simplistic, but I'm sure you see my point.
Just a quick word on our legal system please. In order to get a conviction, the police need the paperwork spot on, otherwise the clever dick paid a fortune defense barristers tear their cases apart. The CPS if you've ever seen them in action whilst on Jury service are under ridiculous pressure too, often to the detriment of the cases put forward. Without that "time at the desk", the arrests can be made, but not unfortunately the convictions. Of course there is also, dare I say it, the element of the rose-coloured glasses brigade to contend with too (No, I'm not becoming CB). The jurors who always seem to "see the good" in everyone and squash the justice. If anyone needs boot/training camp, it's jurors, i.e. US. Do I offer any answers? No. Do I understand the issues? That's for you to judge. What is crass, is the latest idea of taking away all the local police transport, apart from bicycles. Nowadays even to book an arrest involves many wasted hours travelling back and forth on buses. To the courts and to the custody cells. To the criminal it's a simple weighing up of risk vs reward. Maybe that's too simplistic, but I'm sure you see my point. JackDaniels
  • Score: 0

12:37pm Mon 12 Nov 12

Walthamster says...

Every time an nastier-than-usual crime happens, like this one, it opens the way for other criminals to give it a try.

Society's response (ours, and the police and courts) should be to stamp down on it so hard that others will drop any idea of copying it. Otherwise, terrorising residents just adds a bit of vicious fun for people bored with simple burglaries.

If we had done this when street robberies first started happening, they would not have become common.

I'm serious. Murders were once so rare that each one made national news, just a few decades ago. Now teenagers kill each other to impress their friends.

Many other good points have also made in this thead. I hope someone takes note.
Every time an nastier-than-usual crime happens, like this one, it opens the way for other criminals to give it a try. Society's response (ours, and the police and courts) should be to stamp down on it so hard that others will drop any idea of copying it. Otherwise, terrorising residents just adds a bit of vicious fun for people bored with simple burglaries. If we had done this when street robberies first started happening, they would not have become common. I'm serious. Murders were once so rare that each one made national news, just a few decades ago. Now teenagers kill each other to impress their friends. Many other good points have also made in this thead. I hope someone takes note. Walthamster
  • Score: 0

8:19pm Tue 13 Nov 12

stickmanny says...

"Murders were once so rare that each one made national news, just a few decades ago."


are you sure about this? my computer says otherwise
"Murders were once so rare that each one made national news, just a few decades ago." are you sure about this? my computer says otherwise stickmanny
  • Score: 0

9:25pm Tue 13 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

stickmanny wrote:
"Murders were once so rare that each one made national news, just a few decades ago."


are you sure about this? my computer says otherwise
He is correct.

Your computer say no?
[quote][p][bold]stickmanny[/bold] wrote: "Murders were once so rare that each one made national news, just a few decades ago." are you sure about this? my computer says otherwise[/p][/quote]He is correct. Your computer say no? Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

9:30pm Tue 13 Nov 12

E17_er says...

Cornbeefur wrote:
stickmanny wrote:
"Murders were once so rare that each one made national news, just a few decades ago."


are you sure about this? my computer says otherwise
He is correct.

Your computer say no?
No. He is quite wrong.

http://uk.news.yahoo
.com/uk-homicide-rat
e-falls-29-low-14422
9743.html

A few decades ago murder rates were exactly as they are today.

Facts. You seem so confused by them.
[quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]stickmanny[/bold] wrote: "Murders were once so rare that each one made national news, just a few decades ago." are you sure about this? my computer says otherwise[/p][/quote]He is correct. Your computer say no?[/p][/quote]No. He is quite wrong. http://uk.news.yahoo .com/uk-homicide-rat e-falls-29-low-14422 9743.html A few decades ago murder rates were exactly as they are today. Facts. You seem so confused by them. E17_er
  • Score: 0

10:33pm Tue 13 Nov 12

Cornbeefur says...

stickmanny wrote:
"Murders were once so rare that each one made national news, just a few decades ago."


are you sure about this? my computer says otherwise
Too many in E17 are er wearing Cranberry Tinted Spectacles and are aloof to reality of the numerous unsolved Major Crimes including, Murders. Rapes Serious Assaults, and so on.

Please, I urge these people to get real.
[quote][p][bold]stickmanny[/bold] wrote: "Murders were once so rare that each one made national news, just a few decades ago." are you sure about this? my computer says otherwise[/p][/quote]Too many in E17 are er wearing Cranberry Tinted Spectacles and are aloof to reality of the numerous unsolved Major Crimes including, Murders. Rapes Serious Assaults, and so on. Please, I urge these people to get real. Cornbeefur
  • Score: 0

7:06am Wed 14 Nov 12

E17_er says...

Cornbeefur wrote:
stickmanny wrote:
"Murders were once so rare that each one made national news, just a few decades ago."


are you sure about this? my computer says otherwise
Too many in E17 are er wearing Cranberry Tinted Spectacles and are aloof to reality of the numerous unsolved Major Crimes including, Murders. Rapes Serious Assaults, and so on.

Please, I urge these people to get real.
Some people seem unable to process facts. Perhaps all they have is Cornbeef between the ears.
[quote][p][bold]Cornbeefur[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]stickmanny[/bold] wrote: "Murders were once so rare that each one made national news, just a few decades ago." are you sure about this? my computer says otherwise[/p][/quote]Too many in E17 are er wearing Cranberry Tinted Spectacles and are aloof to reality of the numerous unsolved Major Crimes including, Murders. Rapes Serious Assaults, and so on. Please, I urge these people to get real.[/p][/quote]Some people seem unable to process facts. Perhaps all they have is Cornbeef between the ears. E17_er
  • Score: 0

8:33pm Wed 14 Nov 12

KWyatt-Lown says...

As anyone who may have read the exchanges after the article ; http://www.guardian-
series.co.uk/your_lo
cal_areas/10022892.N
ew_Tesco__making_ind
ependent_traders_los
e_out_/ will be aware, I have been seeking a simple response from Cornbeefur to two very straightforward questions. Why he elects to hide behind his self-confessed “user name” and what, indeed, his real name is.

Having been challenged by him on these same issues I was happy to provide an open and honest response. He has now spent the last seven days evading the questions himself, occasionally providing somewhat insulting and, indeed, frankly juvenile postings (I think we all might agree that “my dad’s bigger than your dad” hardly raises the bar on reasoned debate) that do little to enhance any reputation he might possibly seek to establish or maintain as a worthwhile contributor to grown-up and rational discussion within these pages.

So, Cornbeefur, I ask you once again: please have the good grace to return my courtesy and answer my unambiguous questions. Thank you.
As anyone who may have read the exchanges after the article ; http://www.guardian- series.co.uk/your_lo cal_areas/10022892.N ew_Tesco__making_ind ependent_traders_los e_out_/ will be aware, I have been seeking a simple response from Cornbeefur to two very straightforward questions. Why he elects to hide behind his self-confessed “user name” and what, indeed, his real name is. Having been challenged by him on these same issues I was happy to provide an open and honest response. He has now spent the last seven days evading the questions himself, occasionally providing somewhat insulting and, indeed, frankly juvenile postings (I think we all might agree that “my dad’s bigger than your dad” hardly raises the bar on reasoned debate) that do little to enhance any reputation he might possibly seek to establish or maintain as a worthwhile contributor to grown-up and rational discussion within these pages. So, Cornbeefur, I ask you once again: please have the good grace to return my courtesy and answer my unambiguous questions. Thank you. KWyatt-Lown
  • Score: 0

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