UN official says law could be broken if Waltham Forest Council gives cash to firm with Israel links

East London and West Essex Guardian Series: Campaigners earlier this year outside Waltham Forest Town Hall protesting against the decision to include Veolia on the contract shortlists. Campaigners earlier this year outside Waltham Forest Town Hall protesting against the decision to include Veolia on the contract shortlists.

A UN official has warned that Waltham Forest Council may break international law if it gives public money to a firm which he says is complicit in the running of Israel's illegal settlements.


French multinational Veolia is currently in contention for several waste contracts in the borough, but Richard Falk, the UN's human rights special rapporteur for the Palestinian territories, says the firm should be rejected from the bidding process.


Veolia has attracted criticism for its involvement in projects such as the Jerusalem Light Rail (JLR), which the UN Human Rights Council has described as being in "clear violation of international law" because it links parts of Israel with its illegal settlements in the West Bank.


Veolia, which was due to operate the route but pulled out of the project last year, strongly denies supporting illegal activity and says it was not consulted on the route of the JLR.

Mr Falk said the firm owns approximately 80 per cent of Connex Jerusalem, which is the company that operates the trains.


The Israeli government disputes the UN's claim that it is in violation of international law and denies persecuting Palestinians.


Mr Falk wrote to the council stating that any transfer of public funds to Veolia "may contravene the UK’s international legal obligation not to facilitate Israeli violations of international law".


Veolia is currently tendering for two related contracts for The North London Waste Authority (NLWA), which the council is a member of and which is chaired by cabinet member Cllr Clyde Loakes.


The contracts, a worth a total of between £3-4 billion of taxpayers' cash, are to oversee rubbish disposal in the region for the next 25 to 35 years.


Campaigners say Veolia is also on the shortlist to take over the council's street cleansing and grounds maintenance contract in Waltham Forest, although this has not been confirmed by the authority.


In a letter to the council, Mr Falk said: "the failure to bring Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory to an end after more than 45 years creates an augmented international responsibility to uphold the human rights of the Palestinian people.

"I urge you to take the just and principled decision not to award Veolia any public service contracts."


In response, a spokesman for Veolia cited comments by the US Ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, who described Mr Falk as “highly biased”.


He added: “Veolia Environnement has a presence in Israel through its operating local subsidiaries owned by Veolia Israel.


“In relation to the Occupied Territories, there are no current plans to undertake any further activities or to service the Israeli settlements situated therein”.


A spokesman for the NLWA said that following legal advice it could not exclude Veolia on the grounds laid out by Mr Falk.


The Guardian is awaiting a comment from the council.

Comments (22)

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1:25pm Wed 21 Nov 12

hursthill says...

Why is the headline to this article so misleading ?

The penultimate paragraph makes it clear awarding a contract to Veolia is fully in accordance with the law. Many many councils have such contracts.

Mr Falk is famous for his bias against Israel, & with help from his friends has tricked the Guardian into printing this misleading article. The standard of journalism should be improved.

FACT. The West Bank is not illegally occupied by Israel, but administered by the Palestinian authorities & Israel, under the Oslo peace agreement. These are disputed territories, previously ruled by Jordan. The matter can only be resolved by direct peace talks.
Why is the headline to this article so misleading ? The penultimate paragraph makes it clear awarding a contract to Veolia is fully in accordance with the law. Many many councils have such contracts. Mr Falk is famous for his bias against Israel, & with help from his friends has tricked the Guardian into printing this misleading article. The standard of journalism should be improved. FACT. The West Bank is not illegally occupied by Israel, but administered by the Palestinian authorities & Israel, under the Oslo peace agreement. These are disputed territories, previously ruled by Jordan. The matter can only be resolved by direct peace talks. hursthill
  • Score: 0

1:40pm Wed 21 Nov 12

Mrs Brilliant says...

The professional apologists for Israel have begun.

You have to be exceptionally ignorant to believe that Israel is not in unlawful occupation of the West bank and has been condemned on numerous occasions by the United Nations. Even "soft" Zionists deplore the occupation.

Its apartheid wall slices through Palestinian farms and hands land over to Israel settlers who are some of the vilest fanatics on earth.

Israel is the world's last settler state, founded in terrorist violence and supported by the USA for its cynical ends.

Palestinians have suffered 64 years of violent repression at the hands of Zionist thugs, and Zionism is a fanatical ideology whose founder, Herzl, always understood that it required the suppression and removal of the "natives" from the land.

Not that I expect morality or a concern for human rights is likely to have much purchase with Waltham Forest council. Its indifference to legality is also notorious and has been revealed many times, most recently when it flouted planning law by carrying our unauthorised modifications to the listed Town Hall.
The professional apologists for Israel have begun. You have to be exceptionally ignorant to believe that Israel is not in unlawful occupation of the West bank and has been condemned on numerous occasions by the United Nations. Even "soft" Zionists deplore the occupation. Its apartheid wall slices through Palestinian farms and hands land over to Israel settlers who are some of the vilest fanatics on earth. Israel is the world's last settler state, founded in terrorist violence and supported by the USA for its cynical ends. Palestinians have suffered 64 years of violent repression at the hands of Zionist thugs, and Zionism is a fanatical ideology whose founder, Herzl, always understood that it required the suppression and removal of the "natives" from the land. Not that I expect morality or a concern for human rights is likely to have much purchase with Waltham Forest council. Its indifference to legality is also notorious and has been revealed many times, most recently when it flouted planning law by carrying our unauthorised modifications to the listed Town Hall. Mrs Brilliant
  • Score: 0

1:44pm Wed 21 Nov 12

mdj says...

'The contracts, a worth a total of between £3-4 billion of taxpayers' cash, are to oversee rubbish disposal in the region for the next 25 to 35 years'

Mr Loakes is presumably a person of similar ability to others on the NL Waste Authority. On his watch we already know that £11 million of BNI money went missing without explanation, and investigations are still pending into the apparently fraudulent introduction of business waste collected by Kier staff into this borough's domestic waste, which it is feared may have cost us £1 million in landfill charges.This occurred while he was busy prosecuting a local businesswoman for sensibly recycling a cardboard box, a fiasco which brought this borough into national derision.
It is terrifying to contemplate that he and others like him have the power to sign multi-billion contracts for such long periods. However bad a deal this turns out to be, we will have no control over it for several elections to come, long after those responsible for committing our money to it are gone and forgotten. Any service that requires such long lead times to function efficiently should be a publicly-owned utility, subject to democratic control.
'The contracts, a worth a total of between £3-4 billion of taxpayers' cash, are to oversee rubbish disposal in the region for the next 25 to 35 years' Mr Loakes is presumably a person of similar ability to others on the NL Waste Authority. On his watch we already know that £11 million of BNI money went missing without explanation, and investigations are still pending into the apparently fraudulent introduction of business waste collected by Kier staff into this borough's domestic waste, which it is feared may have cost us £1 million in landfill charges.This occurred while he was busy prosecuting a local businesswoman for sensibly recycling a cardboard box, a fiasco which brought this borough into national derision. It is terrifying to contemplate that he and others like him have the power to sign multi-billion contracts for such long periods. However bad a deal this turns out to be, we will have no control over it for several elections to come, long after those responsible for committing our money to it are gone and forgotten. Any service that requires such long lead times to function efficiently should be a publicly-owned utility, subject to democratic control. mdj
  • Score: 0

1:55pm Wed 21 Nov 12

SXH says...

On the 12th November i saw an artical "Waste authority to offer advice on how to save food money (The North London Waste Authority)
when reading artical i noticed Clyde Loakes was part on it, within seconds the artical was edited, when i read it again there was no mention of Clyde Loakes?, now it pops up here One wonders!!!!

mdj i agree with you.
On the 12th November i saw an artical "Waste authority to offer advice on how to save food money (The North London Waste Authority) when reading artical i noticed Clyde Loakes was part on it, within seconds the artical was edited, when i read it again there was no mention of Clyde Loakes?, now it pops up here One wonders!!!! mdj i agree with you. SXH
  • Score: 0

2:54pm Wed 21 Nov 12

Sam Hain says...

As if the costly and immoral VT/Babcock education contract were'nt bad enough, along comes another international comanopy of dubious repute hoovering up local contracts. Advice to Council: use a very long spoon when supping with these 'devils' or, better still, keep provision in-house or encourage co-operatives or social enterprises to bid. Should make an interesting topic of debate at the launch of the Council's Social Enterprise Network on Friday!
As if the costly and immoral VT/Babcock education contract were'nt bad enough, along comes another international comanopy of dubious repute hoovering up local contracts. Advice to Council: use a very long spoon when supping with these 'devils' or, better still, keep provision in-house or encourage co-operatives or social enterprises to bid. Should make an interesting topic of debate at the launch of the Council's Social Enterprise Network on Friday! Sam Hain
  • Score: 0

2:56pm Wed 21 Nov 12

Sam Hain says...

Same comment proof-read!:
As if the costly and immoral VT/Babcock education contract weren't bad enough, along comes another international company of dubious repute hoovering up local contracts. Advice to Council: use a very long spoon when supping with these 'devils' or, better still, keep provision in-house or encourage co-operatives or social enterprises to bid. Should make an interesting topic of debate at the launch of the Council's Social Enterprise Network on Friday!
Same comment proof-read!: As if the costly and immoral VT/Babcock education contract weren't bad enough, along comes another international company of dubious repute hoovering up local contracts. Advice to Council: use a very long spoon when supping with these 'devils' or, better still, keep provision in-house or encourage co-operatives or social enterprises to bid. Should make an interesting topic of debate at the launch of the Council's Social Enterprise Network on Friday! Sam Hain
  • Score: 0

4:50pm Wed 21 Nov 12

SpursSupporter1 says...

Well this is Waltham Forest Council after all "breaking the law comes naturally too them" i wouldnt mind betting though that not 1 person will be held accountable for anything
Well this is Waltham Forest Council after all "breaking the law comes naturally too them" i wouldnt mind betting though that not 1 person will be held accountable for anything SpursSupporter1
  • Score: 0

5:18pm Wed 21 Nov 12

Sam Hain says...

Just wait 'til Hamas finds out!
Just wait 'til Hamas finds out! Sam Hain
  • Score: 0

11:53pm Wed 21 Nov 12

G_Whiz says...

'Buy British'! We don't want to give all our money to another French firm!

France would not give a contract like that to a British firm. Ever!
'Buy British'! We don't want to give all our money to another French firm! France would not give a contract like that to a British firm. Ever! G_Whiz
  • Score: 0

12:05am Thu 22 Nov 12

G_Whiz says...

Sam Hain wrote:
Just wait 'til Hamas finds out!
Hamas will wipe Israel off the map and Destroy all Jews! - Well that's what they keep saying anyway.

Best not tell them about Violia!

Why don't we just ignore it all? - Some on the left like Falk are so obsessed with Israel. They were not so vocal about much bigger slaughter in places like Sri Lanka, Sudan and of course, the Kurds.

Perhaps it is' the Jewish bit they don't like?
[quote][p][bold]Sam Hain[/bold] wrote: Just wait 'til Hamas finds out![/p][/quote]Hamas will wipe Israel off the map and Destroy all Jews! - Well that's what they keep saying anyway. Best not tell them about Violia! Why don't we just ignore it all? - Some on the left like Falk are so obsessed with Israel. They were not so vocal about much bigger slaughter in places like Sri Lanka, Sudan and of course, the Kurds. Perhaps it is' the Jewish bit they don't like? G_Whiz
  • Score: 0

12:49am Thu 22 Nov 12

PG_Bill says...

Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the
nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT) and bars international inspections? ?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign
territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Apart from Iran, which country in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?
Answer: Israel

Question: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking
military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were
executed?
Answer: Israel .

Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?
Answer: Israel .

Question: What country in the Middle East created millions of
refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and
businesses?
Answer: Israel .

Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay
compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it
confiscated?
Answer: Israel .

Question: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking
United Nations diplomat assassinated?
Answer: Israel .

Question: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister?
Answer: Israel .

Question: What country in the Middle East blew up an American
diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors?
Answer: Israel .

Question: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents from USA and then gave some of them
to the Soviet Union ?
Answer: Israel .

Question: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon?
Answer: Israel .

Question: What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody?
Answer: Israel .

Question: What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque.?
Answer: Israel .

Question: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States , according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a civilian U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana , Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of
69United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected
from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East receives more than
one-third of all U.S. aid to the world yet is the 16th richest country in the world?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S. ?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely insults the American people by having its Prime Minister address the United States Congress and lecturing them like children on why they have no right to reduce foreign aid?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East had its Prime Minister announce to his staff not to worry about what the United States says because "We control America ?"
Answer: Israel .

Question: What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty
International for demolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing 15 civilians including 9 children?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehicles, bulldozers, or tanks?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children?
Answer: Israel .

Question: Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes?
Answer: Israel .
Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT) and bars international inspections? ? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire? Answer: Israel . Question: Apart from Iran, which country in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)? Answer: Israel Question: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed? Answer: Israel . Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war? Answer: Israel . Question: What country in the Middle East created millions of refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses? Answer: Israel . Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated? Answer: Israel . Question: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated? Answer: Israel . Question: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister? Answer: Israel . Question: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors? Answer: Israel . Question: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents from USA and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union ? Answer: Israel . Question: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon? Answer: Israel . Question: What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody? Answer: Israel . Question: What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque.? Answer: Israel . Question: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States , according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a civilian U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana , Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East receives more than one-third of all U.S. aid to the world yet is the 16th richest country in the world? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S. ? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely insults the American people by having its Prime Minister address the United States Congress and lecturing them like children on why they have no right to reduce foreign aid? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East had its Prime Minister announce to his staff not to worry about what the United States says because "We control America ?" Answer: Israel . Question: What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty International for demolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing 15 civilians including 9 children? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehicles, bulldozers, or tanks? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children? Answer: Israel . Question: Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes? Answer: Israel . PG_Bill
  • Score: 0

12:21pm Thu 22 Nov 12

stickmanny says...

End the Occupation

Boycott Israeli goods
End the Occupation Boycott Israeli goods stickmanny
  • Score: 0

12:46pm Thu 22 Nov 12

G_Whiz says...

What time will Hamas break the ceasefire?
What time will Hamas break the ceasefire? G_Whiz
  • Score: 0

1:13pm Thu 22 Nov 12

hatemordor says...

Important information:

Veolia said it reached an agreement to sell its shares in 2010 in the City Pass Consortium, yet to this day there is no evidence that this has happened.

Even if Veolia sold its 5% stake in the City Pass, it still owns Connex which is responsible for ALL the day-to-day running of the Jerusalem Light Railway including ticketing, track maintenance etc.

The settlements are illegal under international law.

The NLWA claim that they are not able to exclude the company on the basis of the location of their activities and because its subsidiaries cannot be considered. Both these claims are misleading; Veolia treats all subsidiaries as divisions of itself and are listed as one company on the stock exchange.

It is NOT the location of their activities that is the issue but their violation of international law which many distinguished experts agree amounts to grave misconduct.

Moreover, in giving over £600m from each borough, residents clearly have an interest in which company is selected to handle their waste. This company is in dire financial straits; its shares have plummeted from 60 Euros to under 8 Euros and it has 15 billion pounds worth of debt.

If the company were to go into administration, it would be local taxpayers picking up the bill as in the case of Barnet Homes.
Important information: Veolia said it reached an agreement to sell its shares in 2010 in the City Pass Consortium, yet to this day there is no evidence that this has happened. Even if Veolia sold its 5% stake in the City Pass, it still owns Connex which is responsible for ALL the day-to-day running of the Jerusalem Light Railway including ticketing, track maintenance etc. The settlements are illegal under international law. The NLWA claim that they are not able to exclude the company on the basis of the location of their activities and because its subsidiaries cannot be considered. Both these claims are misleading; Veolia treats all subsidiaries as divisions of itself and are listed as one company on the stock exchange. It is NOT the location of their activities that is the issue but their violation of international law which many distinguished experts agree amounts to grave misconduct. Moreover, in giving over £600m from each borough, residents clearly have an interest in which company is selected to handle their waste. This company is in dire financial straits; its shares have plummeted from 60 Euros to under 8 Euros and it has 15 billion pounds worth of debt. If the company were to go into administration, it would be local taxpayers picking up the bill as in the case of Barnet Homes. hatemordor
  • Score: 0

2:44pm Thu 22 Nov 12

Sam Hain says...

A good list of questions from PC_Bill, and all with the same answer. But there is another one which yields a different answer. Q: which country consistently supports Israel because its politicians rely on the Jewish vote to keep them in power. A: USA. President Obama has now won his second term and can't stand again so why doesn't he threaten Israel with everything he can throw at them until they accept that two wrongs don't make a right and, whatever wrongs were done to the Jews in the mid-20th century (which were many and grievous) that doesn't justify treating the Palestinian Arabs in this appalling manner. Gosh, doesnt this all seem a long way from emptying the bins and cleaning the streets in Waltham Forest but, in a globalised economy, these conflicts of interest will constantly arise. Answer: bar the big companies from tendering for Council services and either run them in-house or enetrtain only co-operatives and social enterprises.
A good list of questions from PC_Bill, and all with the same answer. But there is another one which yields a different answer. Q: which country consistently supports Israel because its politicians rely on the Jewish vote to keep them in power. A: USA. President Obama has now won his second term and can't stand again so why doesn't he threaten Israel with everything he can throw at them until they accept that two wrongs don't make a right and, whatever wrongs were done to the Jews in the mid-20th century (which were many and grievous) that doesn't justify treating the Palestinian Arabs in this appalling manner. Gosh, doesnt this all seem a long way from emptying the bins and cleaning the streets in Waltham Forest but, in a globalised economy, these conflicts of interest will constantly arise. Answer: bar the big companies from tendering for Council services and either run them in-house or enetrtain only co-operatives and social enterprises. Sam Hain
  • Score: 0

6:31pm Thu 22 Nov 12

stickmanny says...

G_Whiz wrote:
What time will Hamas break the ceasefire?
when they are given their land back
[quote][p][bold]G_Whiz[/bold] wrote: What time will Hamas break the ceasefire?[/p][/quote]when they are given their land back stickmanny
  • Score: 0

11:03pm Fri 23 Nov 12

G_Whiz says...

stickmanny wrote:
G_Whiz wrote:
What time will Hamas break the ceasefire?
when they are given their land back
Go back a bit further in time and the Jews were there first, The Romans then kicked them out, The Byzantines then kicked them out!.....

'characterized by persecution of Christians as the threat from Byzantium grew. The Fatimids, with a predominantly Berber army, invaded the region in 970, a date that marks the beginning of a period of unceasing warfare between numerous enemies, which destroyed Palestine, and in particular devastating its Jewish population. In 1073 Palestine was captured by the Great Seljuq Empire, The Mongol Empire reached Palestine for the first time in 1260, beginning with the Mongol raids into Palestine under Nestorian Christian general Kitbuqa and reaching an apex at the pivotal Battle of Ain Jalut. In 1486, hostilities broke out between the Mamluks and the Ottoman Turks in a battle for control over western Asia, and the Ottomans captured Palestine in 1516.

You see - you can pick and choose who owned it when, where and why!

Complicated!
[quote][p][bold]stickmanny[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]G_Whiz[/bold] wrote: What time will Hamas break the ceasefire?[/p][/quote]when they are given their land back[/p][/quote]Go back a bit further in time and the Jews were there first, The Romans then kicked them out, The Byzantines then kicked them out!..... 'characterized by persecution of Christians as the threat from Byzantium grew.[39] The Fatimids, with a predominantly Berber army, invaded the region in 970, a date that marks the beginning of a period of unceasing warfare between numerous enemies, which destroyed Palestine, and in particular devastating its Jewish population. In 1073 Palestine was captured by the Great Seljuq Empire, The Mongol Empire reached Palestine for the first time in 1260, beginning with the Mongol raids into Palestine under Nestorian Christian general Kitbuqa and reaching an apex at the pivotal Battle of Ain Jalut. In 1486, hostilities broke out between the Mamluks and the Ottoman Turks in a battle for control over western Asia, and the Ottomans captured Palestine in 1516. You see - you can pick and choose who owned it when, where and why! Complicated! G_Whiz
  • Score: 0

10:38pm Sat 24 Nov 12

hatemordor says...

"the Jews were there first"

Er no, Jerusalem was not founded by Jews, i.e. adherents of the Jewish religion. It was founded between 3000 BCE and 2600 BCE by a West Semitic people or possibly the Canaanites, the common ancestors of Palestinians, Lebanese, many Syrians and Jordanians, and many Jews. But when it was founded Jews did not exist. Jerusalem was founded in honor of the ancient god Shalem. It does not mean City of Peace but rather ‘built-up place of Shalem.” Jerusalem appears to have been abandoned between 1000 BCE and 900 BCE, the traditional dates for the united kingdom under David and Solomon.



"The Romans then kicked them out, The Byzantines then kicked them out!....."

Er no, the Byzantines were the "Eastern Roman Empire" based in Constantinople after Rome fel to the Huns, Byzantine society ws largely Christian and is the predecessor to the eastern orthodox churches.

"The Fatimids, with a predominantly Berber army, invaded the region in 970, a date that marks the beginning of a period of unceasing warfare between numerous enemies, which destroyed Palestine, and in particular devastating its Jewish population. In 1073 Palestine was captured by the Great Seljuq Empire, The Mongol Empire reached Palestine for the first time in 1260, beginning with the Mongol raids into Palestine under Nestorian Christian general Kitbuqa and reaching an apex at the pivotal Battle of Ain Jalut. In 1486, hostilities broke out between the Mamluks and the Ottoman Turks in a battle for control over western Asia, and the Ottomans captured Palestine in 1516."

Er no, The Muslims conquered Jerusalem in 638 and ruled it until 1099 when the Crusaders conquered it. The Crusaders killed or expelled Jews and Muslims from the city. The Muslims under Saladin took it back in 1187 CE and allowed Jews to return, and Muslims ruled it until the end of World War I, or altogether for about 1192 years.

I think you need to brush up on your history...
"the Jews were there first" Er no, Jerusalem was not founded by Jews, i.e. adherents of the Jewish religion. It was founded between 3000 BCE and 2600 BCE by a West Semitic people or possibly the Canaanites, the common ancestors of Palestinians, Lebanese, many Syrians and Jordanians, and many Jews. But when it was founded Jews did not exist. Jerusalem was founded in honor of the ancient god Shalem. It does not mean City of Peace but rather ‘built-up place of Shalem.” Jerusalem appears to have been abandoned between 1000 BCE and 900 BCE, the traditional dates for the united kingdom under David and Solomon. "The Romans then kicked them out, The Byzantines then kicked them out!....." Er no, the Byzantines were the "Eastern Roman Empire" based in Constantinople after Rome fel to the Huns, Byzantine society ws largely Christian and is the predecessor to the eastern orthodox churches. "The Fatimids, with a predominantly Berber army, invaded the region in 970, a date that marks the beginning of a period of unceasing warfare between numerous enemies, which destroyed Palestine, and in particular devastating its Jewish population. In 1073 Palestine was captured by the Great Seljuq Empire, The Mongol Empire reached Palestine for the first time in 1260, beginning with the Mongol raids into Palestine under Nestorian Christian general Kitbuqa and reaching an apex at the pivotal Battle of Ain Jalut. In 1486, hostilities broke out between the Mamluks and the Ottoman Turks in a battle for control over western Asia, and the Ottomans captured Palestine in 1516." Er no, The Muslims conquered Jerusalem in 638 and ruled it until 1099 when the Crusaders conquered it. The Crusaders killed or expelled Jews and Muslims from the city. The Muslims under Saladin took it back in 1187 CE and allowed Jews to return, and Muslims ruled it until the end of World War I, or altogether for about 1192 years. I think you need to brush up on your history... hatemordor
  • Score: 0

6:40pm Sun 25 Nov 12

G_Whiz says...

Oh, so the Jews were there before the muslims! and of course Jesus was a Jew. Islam came 600 years later.

Talk about dragging out your agreement with me!
Oh, so the Jews were there before the muslims! and of course Jesus was a Jew. Islam came 600 years later. Talk about dragging out your agreement with me! G_Whiz
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8:27pm Sun 25 Nov 12

stickmanny says...

There was no international law until the 19th century, not properly enshrined until the 20th.

The Israeli state is in breach of international law.

Back to 1967 borders is not too much to ask.
There was no international law until the 19th century, not properly enshrined until the 20th. The Israeli state is in breach of international law. Back to 1967 borders is not too much to ask. stickmanny
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1:52am Mon 26 Nov 12

bob_dobbs says...

"Oh, so the Jews were there before the muslims! and of course Jesus was a Jew. Islam came 600 years later."

So basically you are retracting your initial assertion that "the Jews were there first" i.e. the original inhabitants of the geographical area that is now defined as Israel/Palestine. A position that is impossible to defend historically.

Asserting that Jewish presence pre-dates Muslim presence is self-evident, given that Islam is the most modern of the Abrahamic religions and Judaism pre-dates it by centuries.

Admittedly one observation from your revised post was correct: "Jesus was a Jew".

Other than this, what is your point exactly?
"Oh, so the Jews were there before the muslims! and of course Jesus was a Jew. Islam came 600 years later." So basically you are retracting your initial assertion that "the Jews were there first" i.e. the original inhabitants of the geographical area that is now defined as Israel/Palestine. A position that is impossible to defend historically. Asserting that Jewish presence pre-dates Muslim presence is self-evident, given that Islam is the most modern of the Abrahamic religions and Judaism pre-dates it by centuries. Admittedly one observation from your revised post was correct: "Jesus was a Jew". Other than this, what is your point exactly? bob_dobbs
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8:45pm Mon 10 Dec 12

hursthill says...

This weekend khaled meshal the leader of hamas issued a call to destroy Israel, standing in front of an M75 rocket, to a packed audience.

The M75 rockets are fired by hamas at Israeli kids, using Palestinian kids as human shields = A double war crime !

There is now peace along the Gaza/Israel border, following the succesfull air campaign by Israel, ground forces were not required..

Let us now turn our attention to Syria, where Assad is about to use chemical weapons against his own people, & consider a boycott of Syrian goods.
This weekend khaled meshal the leader of hamas issued a call to destroy Israel, standing in front of an M75 rocket, to a packed audience. The M75 rockets are fired by hamas at Israeli kids, using Palestinian kids as human shields = A double war crime ! There is now peace along the Gaza/Israel border, following the succesfull air campaign by Israel, ground forces were not required.. Let us now turn our attention to Syria, where Assad is about to use chemical weapons against his own people, & consider a boycott of Syrian goods. hursthill
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