A Government survey has found that Waltham Forest residents are among the least satisfied with their local area in London (From East London and West Essex Guardian Series)

Very high Council Tax, filth streets (although bit better since Kier took over), high crime, shabby shops and restaurants, that have been closed down disproportionately for hygiene offences, incompetence in the local Council, Green Man Traffic Standstill, shootings, stabbings, prostitution, drugs openly sold and taken on the street,dodgy looking internet cafes, fruit and veg sold by unlicensed vendors on streets, having to run gauntlet of DVD salesmen and three card tricksters by Leyton Tube, Beggars galore, depressing High Street Walthamstow, empty derelict EMD cinema, demolished Arcade Site desolate, closed down Dog Track abandoned, uncertain future William Morris Gallery, Cohen M.P. and his expenses, aftermath of Loakes, Councillors in Court too often, decrepit Swimming Pools, failing schools, Council Trying to build on former Essex County Cricket Ground.....Is it any wonder?

No sh*t Sherlock!

Fresh Gravee wrote:
Very high Council Tax, filth streets (although bit better since Kier took over), high crime, shabby shops and restaurants, that have been closed down disproportionately for hygiene offences, incompetence in the local Council, Green Man Traffic Standstill, shootings, stabbings, prostitution, drugs openly sold and taken on the street,dodgy looking internet cafes, fruit and veg sold by unlicensed vendors on streets, having to run gauntlet of DVD salesmen and three card tricksters by Leyton Tube, Beggars galore, depressing High Street Walthamstow, empty derelict EMD cinema, demolished Arcade Site desolate, closed down Dog Track abandoned, uncertain future William Morris Gallery, Cohen M.P. and his expenses, aftermath of Loakes, Councillors in Court too often, decrepit Swimming Pools, failing schools, Council Trying to build on former Essex County Cricket Ground.....Is it any wonder?

Go on, get it off your chest. I am sure you have missed a few.

:)

If they gave Walthamstow and Leyton to Hackney or Newham, Waltham Forest would be a very nice place to live.

Techno2 wrote:

Fresh Gravee wrote:
Very high Council Tax, filth streets (although bit better since Kier took over), high crime, shabby shops and restaurants, that have been closed down disproportionately for hygiene offences, incompetence in the local Council, Green Man Traffic Standstill, shootings, stabbings, prostitution, drugs openly sold and taken on the street,dodgy looking internet cafes, fruit and veg sold by unlicensed vendors on streets, having to run gauntlet of DVD salesmen and three card tricksters by Leyton Tube, Beggars galore, depressing High Street Walthamstow, empty derelict EMD cinema, demolished Arcade Site desolate, closed down Dog Track abandoned, uncertain future William Morris Gallery, Cohen M.P. and his expenses, aftermath of Loakes, Councillors in Court too often, decrepit Swimming Pools, failing schools, Council Trying to build on former Essex County Cricket Ground.....Is it any wonder?

Go on, get it off your chest. I am sure you have missed a few.

:)

OK, Rapists on loose, pots holes,vandalism,graf
fiti,
Olympic Gravy Train heading towards 100 million missing squids already and still 3 years to go, Whipps Cross Hospital the eternal building Site, will it close or not, Leytonstone One Way System, boarded up Leytonstone Police Station, Ghost Town Leytonstone High Road, Cathall Estate, Flying Traffic Wardens dropping out sky, clampings, Park car=Fine £100, Smoke Drugs=Ooo Naughty Boy don't do it again, Chicken Shop Paradise, 2 pieces chicken chips 99p-like to see origin of the animal, takeaway food wrappers, foxes like rats, rats like foxes, Machine Gunners of Police van still on loose after 4 years Leytonstone, Leyton Orient Football Flats, Spanish Inquisition when trying to dump rubbish at Council Tip, Council Call Centre press 1 for this 2 for that 3 to give up go pub, uncontrolled licensed premise, drunks and vagabonds Walthamstow Central, one found in a bush nobody cares, Ride of Terror Bus Drivers........

I'M H-A-P-P-Y, I'M H-A-P-P-Y, I KNOW I AM I'M SURE I AM, I'M H-A-P-P-Y? errr...not!

With the clowns that we have in control at the Town Hall is it any wonder that this survey gives these results?

This is because our council DOES NOT LISTEN to the wishes of its residents.

and by the way fresh gravee you forgot - closure of old peoples homes, pot holes in all the roads, digging up of roads continually, clamping companies allowed to rule garage forecourts with menaces, lack of street sweeping in north of the borough...it goes on forever.

also poor planning for the increase in population leading to schools being full to bursting.

Pamella wrote:
This is because our council DOES NOT LISTEN to the wishes of its residents.

and by the way fresh gravee you forgot - closure of old peoples homes, pot holes in all the roads, digging up of roads continually, clamping companies allowed to rule garage forecourts with menaces, lack of street sweeping in north of the borough...it goes on forever.

also poor planning for the increase in population leading to schools being full to bursting.

I did mention all of that except for the Old Peoples Home bit. Sorry!

you never mentioned pubs closing down, 3 alone in chingford that i could name.

We may be also getting The church of God instead of the EMD cinema and have no way out of Wlathamstow due to the tubes not running Week ends. We also can't go to local venues to hear a band because this paper won't publish free local entertainment listings anymore Shame on you

C'mon there must be some good things about the area! May I suggest the shops/restaurants/pu
bs in Orford Rd, better grafitti & enviro-crime reduction, Orphan sites, Walthamstow Village, a faster and more frequent Vic & Goblin line service in 6mths to 2 years time, loads of great residents, the E17 Arts trail, Farmer & French Market, Manze's pie & mash, Lloyd Pk/Morris Gallery, the EMD & Dog track even though they're shut, Chingford plain....err....help me out someone!?

RichieA70 wrote:
C'mon there must be some good things about the area! May I suggest the shops/restaurants/pu bs in Orford Rd, better grafitti & enviro-crime reduction, Orphan sites, Walthamstow Village, a faster and more frequent Vic & Goblin line service in 6mths to 2 years time, loads of great residents, the E17 Arts trail, Farmer & French Market, Manze's pie & mash, Lloyd Pk/Morris Gallery, the EMD & Dog track even though they're shut, Chingford plain....err....help me out someone!?

There are loads of good things about Walthamstow.

Many of the things you list though really annoy many residents outside the 'Nob Hill' social ghetto in the village because they are actually just signs of artificial gentrification and the creation of a seperate culture for an inward-looking middle class minority. This seems to live in its own cut-off world and to have lifted a mental drawbridge up where the lives and concerns of the rest of the population is concerned.

What I find most amazing about Walthamstow are food and the wonderful array of people (yes we get the dross of humanity, but we also have some of the most fabulous souls you will ever meet).

Techno2 wrote:

RichieA70 wrote:
C'mon there must be some good things about the area! May I suggest the shops/restaurants/pu bs in Orford Rd, better grafitti & enviro-crime reduction, Orphan sites, Walthamstow Village, a faster and more frequent Vic & Goblin line service in 6mths to 2 years time, loads of great residents, the E17 Arts trail, Farmer & French Market, Manze's pie & mash, Lloyd Pk/Morris Gallery, the EMD & Dog track even though they're shut, Chingford plain....err....help me out someone!?

There are loads of good things about Walthamstow.

Many of the things you list though really annoy many residents outside the 'Nob Hill' social ghetto in the village because they are actually just signs of artificial gentrification and the creation of a seperate culture for an inward-looking middle class minority. This seems to live in its own cut-off world and to have lifted a mental drawbridge up where the lives and concerns of the rest of the population is concerned.

What I find most amazing about Walthamstow are food and the wonderful array of people (yes we get the dross of humanity, but we also have some of the most fabulous souls you will ever meet).

I take your point. There are good things and I know what you mean about the snootyness of the 'Village' where a coffee and sandwich can can cost more than the West End and some of the Pubs think they are in Chelsea. There is a wide range of food shops around and the ones that are not closed down for hygiene reasons by the council, do produce some good intercontinental fare. There is a certain myth that the Village will 'happen' one day. It has not happened at all but has in my view gradually worsened whilst at the same time see an array of trendy shops opened whilst decay seems to be equally active. The imposing St Mary's Church and Vestry House Museum, contrasts to the decrepit shops with broken glass and filty shop fronts, pseudo 'art' shops, more take aways, inconsistant pubs and restaurants. The crime in and around the village is at times terrifying. The Police still have not found the murderer of the lady in the Church Yard who was found there recently, there is another murderer and rapist on the loose, and countless robberies and assaults. Not the sort of climate to enjoy a latte and pain au raison.

The market has declined as well. The remnants of shops like Manzes Pie and Mash, the EMD, and a few othe shops are all that remain now. Stallholders all seam to sell much the same between them.

Techno2 wrote:

RichieA70 wrote: C'mon there must be some good things about the area! May I suggest the shops/restaurants/pu bs in Orford Rd, better grafitti & enviro-crime reduction, Orphan sites, Walthamstow Village, a faster and more frequent Vic & Goblin line service in 6mths to 2 years time, loads of great residents, the E17 Arts trail, Farmer & French Market, Manze's pie & mash, Lloyd Pk/Morris Gallery, the EMD & Dog track even though they're shut, Chingford plain....err....help me out someone!?

There are loads of good things about Walthamstow. Many of the things you list though really annoy many residents outside the 'Nob Hill' social ghetto in the village because they are actually just signs of artificial gentrification and the creation of a seperate culture for an inward-looking middle class minority. This seems to live in its own cut-off world and to have lifted a mental drawbridge up where the lives and concerns of the rest of the population is concerned. What I find most amazing about Walthamstow are food and the wonderful array of people (yes we get the dross of humanity, but we also have some of the most fabulous souls you will ever meet).

I have no means to dispute your claims but where's yours evidence that the village area really annoys 'many residents'?

Gentrification in terms of increased investment resulting in restoration, new businesses/services and a generally more attractive area isn't achieved through smoke & mirrors - it's real.

Would you criticise other areas in Walthamstow with predominantly different cultures -i.e. Asian, or do you think the village part is a unique 'ghetto'?

There are middle class people all over the borough. If you feel those drawn to or contributing to the village area are a different sub-class who turn their backs on anywhere else I'd have to disagree.

What do you want? Walthamstow to stubbornly stay working-class and shut out those able to add to the area's cultural mix and economy?

Fresh Gravee wrote:

Techno2 wrote:

RichieA70 wrote: C'mon there must be some good things about the area! May I suggest the shops/restaurants/pu bs in Orford Rd, better grafitti & enviro-crime reduction, Orphan sites, Walthamstow Village, a faster and more frequent Vic & Goblin line service in 6mths to 2 years time, loads of great residents, the E17 Arts trail, Farmer & French Market, Manze's pie & mash, Lloyd Pk/Morris Gallery, the EMD & Dog track even though they're shut, Chingford plain....err....help me out someone!?

There are loads of good things about Walthamstow. Many of the things you list though really annoy many residents outside the 'Nob Hill' social ghetto in the village because they are actually just signs of artificial gentrification and the creation of a seperate culture for an inward-looking middle class minority. This seems to live in its own cut-off world and to have lifted a mental drawbridge up where the lives and concerns of the rest of the population is concerned. What I find most amazing about Walthamstow are food and the wonderful array of people (yes we get the dross of humanity, but we also have some of the most fabulous souls you will ever meet).

I take your point. There are good things and I know what you mean about the snootyness of the 'Village' where a coffee and sandwich can can cost more than the West End and some of the Pubs think they are in Chelsea. There is a wide range of food shops around and the ones that are not closed down for hygiene reasons by the council, do produce some good intercontinental fare. There is a certain myth that the Village will 'happen' one day. It has not happened at all but has in my view gradually worsened whilst at the same time see an array of trendy shops opened whilst decay seems to be equally active. The imposing St Mary's Church and Vestry House Museum, contrasts to the decrepit shops with broken glass and filty shop fronts, pseudo 'art' shops, more take aways, inconsistant pubs and restaurants. The crime in and around the village is at times terrifying. The Police still have not found the murderer of the lady in the Church Yard who was found there recently, there is another murderer and rapist on the loose, and countless robberies and assaults. Not the sort of climate to enjoy a latte and pain au raison. The market has declined as well. The remnants of shops like Manzes Pie and Mash, the EMD, and a few othe shops are all that remain now. Stallholders all seam to sell much the same between them.

What are 'inconsistant pubs and restaurants' exactly? And what's wrong with art shops (whethere pseudo or otherwise)Don't you like variety? I'm only aware of one broken shop front, and that's part of a building undergoing restoration.

RichieA70 wrote:

Fresh Gravee wrote:

Techno2 wrote:

RichieA70 wrote: C'mon there must be some good things about the area! May I suggest the shops/restaurants/pu bs in Orford Rd, better grafitti & enviro-crime reduction, Orphan sites, Walthamstow Village, a faster and more frequent Vic & Goblin line service in 6mths to 2 years time, loads of great residents, the E17 Arts trail, Farmer & French Market, Manze's pie & mash, Lloyd Pk/Morris Gallery, the EMD & Dog track even though they're shut, Chingford plain....err....help me out someone!?

There are loads of good things about Walthamstow. Many of the things you list though really annoy many residents outside the 'Nob Hill' social ghetto in the village because they are actually just signs of artificial gentrification and the creation of a seperate culture for an inward-looking middle class minority. This seems to live in its own cut-off world and to have lifted a mental drawbridge up where the lives and concerns of the rest of the population is concerned. What I find most amazing about Walthamstow are food and the wonderful array of people (yes we get the dross of humanity, but we also have some of the most fabulous souls you will ever meet).

I take your point. There are good things and I know what you mean about the snootyness of the 'Village' where a coffee and sandwich can can cost more than the West End and some of the Pubs think they are in Chelsea. There is a wide range of food shops around and the ones that are not closed down for hygiene reasons by the council, do produce some good intercontinental fare. There is a certain myth that the Village will 'happen' one day. It has not happened at all but has in my view gradually worsened whilst at the same time see an array of trendy shops opened whilst decay seems to be equally active. The imposing St Mary's Church and Vestry House Museum, contrasts to the decrepit shops with broken glass and filty shop fronts, pseudo 'art' shops, more take aways, inconsistant pubs and restaurants. The crime in and around the village is at times terrifying. The Police still have not found the murderer of the lady in the Church Yard who was found there recently, there is another murderer and rapist on the loose, and countless robberies and assaults. Not the sort of climate to enjoy a latte and pain au raison. The market has declined as well. The remnants of shops like Manzes Pie and Mash, the EMD, and a few othe shops are all that remain now. Stallholders all seam to sell much the same between them.

What are 'inconsistant pubs and restaurants' exactly? And what's wrong with art shops (whethere pseudo or otherwise)Don't you like variety? I'm only aware of one broken shop front, and that's part of a building undergoing restoration.

Inconsistent service, quality of food and drink,staff attitude, opening hours, ownership,
and so on.

Stuff like items of furniture that one finds thrown in skips, that is painted in inappropriate colours may be your idea of art but not mine.

I do not know what shops you mean, but without mentioning names there was a shop open for business with a sheet of corrugated metal over a window for at least 2 years and next door another shop boarded up with people living in it. Other shops along the main road in the village have inconsistent and inappropriate signage that is shabby and worn. Very few shopkeepers clean their windows, brickwork or canopies. A similar street scene along St Johns Wood is different class purely because the shop keepers take pride in doing basic cleaning to their premises. they also sweep and wash down their shop frontages. I love variety and a few minor changes and a little bit of effort by the shopkeepers would make a vast difference.

I notice that the Village Festival that used to attract thousands has disappeared for some strange reason.

RichieA70 wrote:

Techno2 wrote:

RichieA70 wrote: C'mon there must be some good things about the area! May I suggest the shops/restaurants/pu bs in Orford Rd, better grafitti & enviro-crime reduction, Orphan sites, Walthamstow Village, a faster and more frequent Vic & Goblin line service in 6mths to 2 years time, loads of great residents, the E17 Arts trail, Farmer & French Market, Manze's pie & mash, Lloyd Pk/Morris Gallery, the EMD & Dog track even though they're shut, Chingford plain....err....help me out someone!?

There are loads of good things about Walthamstow. Many of the things you list though really annoy many residents outside the 'Nob Hill' social ghetto in the village because they are actually just signs of artificial gentrification and the creation of a seperate culture for an inward-looking middle class minority. This seems to live in its own cut-off world and to have lifted a mental drawbridge up where the lives and concerns of the rest of the population is concerned. What I find most amazing about Walthamstow are food and the wonderful array of people (yes we get the dross of humanity, but we also have some of the most fabulous souls you will ever meet).

I have no means to dispute your claims but where's yours evidence that the village area really annoys 'many residents'? Gentrification in terms of increased investment resulting in restoration, new businesses/services and a generally more attractive area isn't achieved through smoke & mirrors - it's real. Would you criticise other areas in Walthamstow with predominantly different cultures -i.e. Asian, or do you think the village part is a unique 'ghetto'? There are middle class people all over the borough. If you feel those drawn to or contributing to the village area are a different sub-class who turn their backs on anywhere else I'd have to disagree. What do you want? Walthamstow to stubbornly stay working-class and shut out those able to add to the area's cultural mix and economy?

The snooty behaviour of residents in the village can be quite annoying to people who live in other parts of the borough, if you want to know.

There is something irritatingly predictable to people who live in the other parts of the borough about the inward-looking falsity of many of the village residents' approach to protecting their own interests, which is sometimes at others' expense because they behave like squeeky middle class wheels trying to get the most oil from the limited public resources available. There are large parts of the borough many people in the village rarely if ever shop or in or go to for entertainment, but my word don't they love to pontificate about their own few limited streets.

Ironically the security word for this comment is area-hole. Glad I made the move to Redbridge.

I think the main oint to make is it is the council's policies do not help. whenever they make a change its always for the worse. we tell them what we need - felxible parking, cleaner, safer streets, more visible policing etc etc - they dont listen. if you ask me the fact that any retail outlets survive in waltham forest is in spite of the council than because of them.

walthamstow has gone down hill over last few years,born and lived there for 37 years but moved out area last year ,but return to vist people and looks worse everytime i do,whats the capture 250,000 people one commuinty yeah right

Hugh Jed wrote:
Ironically the security word for this comment is area-hole. Glad I made the move to Redbridge.

Well I moved from Redbridge to Walthamstow 5 years ago and love the area. On top of the fact it's one of the few areas in London I could buy a home in I love it's variety and vitality. I adore the farmer's market, the mix of cafes (Shout out here to the Windmill and Daisy's), the nice pubs (not the nasty ones on the high strett though), the Walthamstow festival, McGuffin's pub quiz, Cavern Records and Awsome Games. I honestly wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

JonathanB wrote:

Hugh Jed wrote:
Ironically the security word for this comment is area-hole. Glad I made the move to Redbridge.

Well I moved from Redbridge to Walthamstow 5 years ago and love the area. On top of the fact it's one of the few areas in London I could buy a home in I love it's variety and vitality. I adore the farmer's market, the mix of cafes (Shout out here to the Windmill and Daisy's), the nice pubs (not the nasty ones on the high strett though), the Walthamstow festival, McGuffin's pub quiz, Cavern Records and Awsome Games. I honestly wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

You can get treatment for it.

If you compare whats being reported on between the guardian in Epping forest - Waltham forest - Wanstead & Woodford, it does seem every story in waltham forest is serious crime. I think that says it alot for the area, argue all you want I grew up in E17 and think it is a toilet including the village.

The guv wrote:
If you compare whats being reported on between the guardian in Epping forest - Waltham forest - Wanstead & Woodford, it does seem every story in waltham forest is serious crime. I think that says it alot for the area, argue all you want I grew up in E17 and think it is a toilet including the village.

If only the crimes are memorable that might be a reflection of the interesting crimes we have locally, but also of the unimaginative pap the local reporters get fed by the local council.

Wow! I did not know there were that many English speaking people left in Waltham Forest!
Seriously, I agree whole heartedly with Fresh Gravee.

Techno2 wrote:

RichieA70 wrote:

Techno2 wrote:

RichieA70 wrote: C'mon there must be some good things about the area! May I suggest the shops/restaurants/pu bs in Orford Rd, better grafitti & enviro-crime reduction, Orphan sites, Walthamstow Village, a faster and more frequent Vic & Goblin line service in 6mths to 2 years time, loads of great residents, the E17 Arts trail, Farmer & French Market, Manze's pie & mash, Lloyd Pk/Morris Gallery, the EMD & Dog track even though they're shut, Chingford plain....err....help me out someone!?

There are loads of good things about Walthamstow. Many of the things you list though really annoy many residents outside the 'Nob Hill' social ghetto in the village because they are actually just signs of artificial gentrification and the creation of a seperate culture for an inward-looking middle class minority. This seems to live in its own cut-off world and to have lifted a mental drawbridge up where the lives and concerns of the rest of the population is concerned. What I find most amazing about Walthamstow are food and the wonderful array of people (yes we get the dross of humanity, but we also have some of the most fabulous souls you will ever meet).

I have no means to dispute your claims but where's yours evidence that the village area really annoys 'many residents'? Gentrification in terms of increased investment resulting in restoration, new businesses/services and a generally more attractive area isn't achieved through smoke & mirrors - it's real. Would you criticise other areas in Walthamstow with predominantly different cultures -i.e. Asian, or do you think the village part is a unique 'ghetto'? There are middle class people all over the borough. If you feel those drawn to or contributing to the village area are a different sub-class who turn their backs on anywhere else I'd have to disagree. What do you want? Walthamstow to stubbornly stay working-class and shut out those able to add to the area's cultural mix and economy?

The snooty behaviour of residents in the village can be quite annoying to people who live in other parts of the borough, if you want to know. There is something irritatingly predictable to people who live in the other parts of the borough about the inward-looking falsity of many of the village residents' approach to protecting their own interests, which is sometimes at others' expense because they behave like squeeky middle class wheels trying to get the most oil from the limited public resources available. There are large parts of the borough many people in the village rarely if ever shop or in or go to for entertainment, but my word don't they love to pontificate about their own few limited streets.

I do see your point but don't know how far it goes. Perception of behaviour isn't always right.

Several people I know think the village area has definitely improved over the last 10 years or so. The overall appearance is certainly improving. 4 pubs alone have/are undergoing full scale renovation at the mo.

If investment brings more prosperity to the area, that's a good thing provided it spreads further than a few streets.

I, like Pamella of Highams Park believe the fault lies with this Council. So far as I can see, the council ceased providing services some time ago and started to concentrate on enforcement or paying the lowest bidder to provide necessary services for this borough, street cleaning, refuse collection, education, elderly care and so on. Their shortsighted policies have gradually eaten away at the fabric of our society. We are no longer being governed or cared for, we are being managed. In my short life I have seen this borough change dramatically, God knows what people have lived here 20, 30 or 40 years plus must think.

The key to our salvation can only lie at the ballot box, if the Apeople of Walthamstow, Leyton and Leytonstone and keep voting for the same thing it is madness to assume that things will change. I have to say that I am pleased I live in Chingford, I have friends who live in Walthamstow and Leyton and notice that they choose to come to me more than I choose to go to them, I'm not sure what that means but I know it means something. This Liberal Democrat/ and Labour administration must go if we want to save our borough.

Richie70 is right to say that the Village area (in which I do not live) has improved in recent years, and also to suggest that the benefits need to spread further.
The problem, as encapsulated in so many postings on this story, is that there seems to be a vendetta against “the middle class” – though people seem unclear about what that means in this context. Village residents are not living in luxurious gated properties, but in small old-fashioned houses. What defines them is education and community spirit rather than money. Armed with that, they have set out successfully to make their environment more attractive.
There are lots of other people like them in the borough, but living here, there and everywhere, rather than in defined areas. They are the ones who volunteer their skills to work with community organisations and who campaign in a bid to make our borough a better place to live. They are not centred just on their own interests but on those of the wider population. We need more residents like them, not fewer.
Those of us who do not live in the Village need to set out to make our “own backyards” more attractive to live in, whether we live in large estates or Victorian terraces or blocks of flats. That probably means taking on the inanities of council policies which are too often bound by targets and too seldom focused on what would make Waltham Forest a better and happier place for all its residents.

I wouldn't pick on the Village as a symbol of what is most wrong with our Borough. Its main problem is that it is now almost totally a dormitory: every time a shop, builder's yard or pub changes hands it becomes yet more housing, which creates more commuting and leaves the streets dead by day. Since the Council has agreed to provide for 20,000 extra population in the next few years (did any of us vote for this?) they will do nothing to preserve community life. The culture of 'professional' councillors means they see themselves as branch managers of central government targets, not as representatives of communities. This has to change before anything else can.

MDJ: You've summed it up in one sentence. Our well-paid councillors "see themselves as branch managers of central government targets, not as representatives of communities".

No wonder they ignore residents and ride roughshod over planning regulations etc. As long as they're ticking the right New Labour boxes, they'll keep getting away with it.

Vote them out!!!